:darwinsm:
Lesbian Methodist Minister
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Ecumenicist
New member
Nin's...
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Originally posted by Zakath
Well, you claim your deity made the government in the first place, so if he's not accountable, they're merely made in his image, right?
Well, I almost believed your first paragraph, and then this one.
God delegates authority. What we do with it isn't His fault. You keep wanting to place blame, but never see fit to put it where it belongs.
1. Disposed to seek revenge; revengeful.
No, I dont feel "vengeful" toward you. You've never done anything to me.
2. Marked by or resulting from a desire to hurt; spiteful.
No, you harm yourself way more than I ever could. If I could be said to have any feeling toward you at all, it would be "pity".
Ok, so why do you feel compelled to make "petty and vindictive" comments then?
aharvey
New member
Okay, one of us is completely misreading the other here. There is only one possible difference between "everyone is born straight" and "no one is born gay." And that is "a person's sexual preferences are not determined until after birth." Is that what you are trying to say? That there is no genetic reason why most men are sexually attracted to women and vice versa? That whether we are attracted to men, women, or both is exclusively an environmental event? If not, and if no one is born gay, but everyone is not born straight, then how is it that most people are heterosexuals? Why are so few people homosexual?
And you might want to rein in your trigger finger tendency to call anyone who disagrees with you a liar. You yourself provided a possible alternative explanation: misreading someone. There are others. Think about it.
We are born with certain biological factors that will one day kick in, and cause us to desire sexual gratification. If nothing inhibits the natural progression we will end up heterosexual. However, there are a number of things that can cause someone to be homosexual, or attracted to animals, or any number of things. That is all. We are born to be straight, but we do not have any actual sexual preference when we are born, because we don't have any sexual desire.
Now, how are straight people choosing to put themselves through anything? What were you talking about?
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Sounds like you're unfamiliar with despotisms like theocracies and military organizations. In either one the senior official is always responsible. That's why they're going to try Hussein, after all...
Only threatened your worldview by disputing your religious beliefs...
I notice that you did not deny a desire to hurt...
Perhaps I hit the mark after all...Well, I've got an excuse... I'm just a poor dumb infidel. You, on the other hand, claim to be lead by a divine spirit...
Allegedly a big difference so far as I can see... unless, of course, you're saying you aren't really led by invisible beings...
Zakath
Resident Atheist
No he's not. It was a reference to king...
And your point is, what? I never claimed those texts didn't exist. I merely pointed out that you were in error when you claimed Jesus called himself that...
Chapter and verse supporting your position please?
There are any number to support the orthodox view...
"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23)
"There is none righteous, not one." (Rom. 3:10)
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. " (Is. 64:6)
Here you depart, once again, from Christian orthodoxy.
I'm certainly not going to waste time arguing the Christian position with you...
I'll leave that to those who actually beleive such things.
Neither is the Roman Catholic Pope, but he believes in original sin. Augustine, the originator of the doctrine wasn't a Calvinist either...
... but you wouldn't know that since you haven't studied Church history. :doh:
King who? Is that what you believed when you were an A/G pastor?
You said:
Post #123
Orthodox does not teach that those who cannot choose are condemned. If they don't know the law, then their sin is not imputed to them. Do you want those verses?
Are you beginning to seeing a pattern?
The idea that we are condemned because of original sin isn't anything I have ever been taught. And I thought it was Calvinism, but Z Man seems to have a different spin, so I don't know.I'm certainly not going to waste time arguing the Christian position with you...
I'll leave that to those who actually beleive such things.
Do they believe in the idea that we are condemned because of it? Or do they believe that we are condemned based on our own sins?
:darwinsm:
Ok, we have the question of ignorant unbelievers. When do we get to the question of stupid unbelievers?
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aharvey
New member
Okay, that's splitting meaningless hairs. That is, for my arguments here "Born straight" and "Born to be straight" are identical. Yes, infants may not experience sexual desire, but their eventual sexual preference is genetically encoded (this is not a hard concept; infant girls do not have periods, but you're not going to argue that menstruation is not under genetic control, are you?). So in less biologically naive terms, you are saying that heterosexuality is genetically hardwired into all humans, and that all deviations from that must come strictly from subsequent environmental, and therefore non-genetic, factors.
It really is simple, no mental gymnastics required. If heterosexuality is genetically hardwired into all humans (see above), then all homosexuals must be genetic heterosexuals that chose to become homosexual, right?
The only way to disagree with the above italicized statement is to say they didn't have a choice, and I can think of only two reasons why this might be: 1) their homosexuality is (drumroll, please!) genetically based, or 2) environmental factors cause them to express homosexual behaviors despite their genetic heterosexuality against their will. This latter would liken homosexuality to a disease condition, right? Does this help clarify my statements?
Nineveh
Merely Christian
OOoo.. I musta missed it. Would you mind repeating it ?
I notice that you did not deny a desire to hurt...
I think you hurt yourself far more and far better than I ever could. Not like I have the desire. If you are feeling massochistic though, you might wanna ring Gerald
You said I was being "petty and vindictive". Is there psycho-babble word for someone who refuses to be part of another's delusion? You would be closer to a lable befitting me if there is.
Ya know what they say faith is the evidence of
lighthouse: do you honestly not understand aharvey's point or are you just "playing dumb" for giggles and grins...? let me give you a concrete example: my gay friends have told me that if they, in fact, HAD been born straight then why would they have willingly CHOSEN to "act" gay and willingly subjected themselves to all the ridicule, harrassment, and misery that they have been subjected to because of their sexual orientation.
On Fire
New member
They don't "willingly" act gay. They have been affected by their environment - molded, trained, brainwashed - as we all have.
Ask the smoker why he smokes. Ask the fat man why he eats McDonalds every day. Ask the serial killer why he kills. Ask your neighbor why he ma$turbate$ with p0rn while his lonely wife wonders what's wrong with her.
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aharvey
New member
Well, that's what I'd understood from the start, but lighthouse doesn't seem to like the wording for some reason. And he still seems to have trouble with the corollary that if everyone is born heterosexual, then homosexuals are really heterosexuals either choosing to be homosexual or being "forced" to be homosexual. I'm pretty sure that when explaining why someone does something, your options are limited to 1) they do it by default [biologically speaking, genetic hardwiring], 2) they choose to do it, or 3) they have no choice but to do it. I've no idea why these basic points have been so hard to pin down.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
[Restrains self from making comment about porcines and pearls...] :shut:
I'm fine, thank you very much! :thumb: I certainly wouldn't call the "G-man" for any sort of thing like that, it's not his (or my) style... besides "G" and "Z" are on the same team in this arena.I think you hurt yourself far more and far better than I ever could. Not like I have the desire. If you are feeling massochistic though, you might wanna ring Gerald
Perhaps you're thinking of the word "normal"? :chuckle:
Unfortunately your alleged experience with imaginary entities takes you well out of "normal"...
Yup... either "wishful thinking" or "doing without".Ya know what they say faith is the evidence of
Zakath
Resident Atheist
A yet unborn king. It's prophecy... at least that's what the (Jewish) owners of the book claim.You said:
Sure.
If you're correct, then why do Christians oppose abortion since it's merely speeding the unborn onto eternal bliss... :think:
That you do not have a good handle on English grammar, yes.
Those who believe in origional sin doctrine believe in both points. It's merely one of the foundational teachings of orthodox Christianity - and the entire reason for the atonment.
:chuckle:
You really do need to get out more and talk to people.
:darwinsm: