What you call tiptoeing is what I call slithering, you are crafty. You avoid the truth like it was a plague.
Answer a straight question. When the rich man in the parable died, did he cease to exist or was he still conscious in another place?
What you call tiptoeing is what I call slithering, you are crafty. You avoid the truth like it was a plague.
Answer a straight question. When the rich man in the parable died, did he cease to exist or was he still conscious in another place?
I merely tell you what the Bible says. I don't avoid the truth at all. You say that I slither. The reason you say that I slither is because you are jerk who doesn't like what the Bible says."Tiptoeing" means walking on eggshells around you jerks so I don't offend you, while you feel free to say any nasty thing you want to about me. I stopped tiptoeing. You are a nasty jerk and you don't believe what the Bible plainly states. I don't believe that you are a Christian, and I believe that you will be destroyed on Judgment Day.
The parable says that the rich man was in Hades. In the parable the man was conscious. I agree that it is possible that people may be conscious in the intermediate state or the parable might have been teaching something else, but the intermediate state isn't what we are talking about. Hades will be destroyed, according to the Bible. After the resurrection, the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more.
Let me ask you a straight question. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? Does it say that "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" or does it say whoever believes in him should not have eternal life in hell being tortured alive but will have eternal life in heaven"?
You avoided my question. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?
Define Perish.
I faithfully answered your question, but you artfully avoided my question. The reason is because if you had answered my question, your doctrine would be shown to be unbiblical.
I believe what the Bible says, that the wicked will perish and will be no more. By the way, you said John 25:46, I assume you mean Matthew 25:46. Read it again. "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Does that say that the everlasting punishment is eternal conscious torment? No, it actually does not say that. I believe that the punishment of the wicked will be eternal, they will be destroyed and will remain destroyed forever. That is an eternal punishment.
But take another look at Matthew 25:46. It says that the righteous will have eternal life. Why would Jesus point out that the righteous will have eternal life, if BOTH groups have eternal life? Obviously the other group does not go to eternal life. Since they do not have eternal life, they cannot be eternally conscious of torture. So the verse you used to try to prove that the wicked will have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever actually proves that the wicked do not have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever.
I just believe what the Bible says, and that means that I don't believe your false doctrine of eternal torture.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Since that is what you think, then I have nothing to say to you; you're too rude to be Christian. You're a pretend Christian, and I've had my fill of them. I don't have to waste my time on fools. They simply never repent.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another
Okay.
I've told you what the Bible says and you have rejected that in favor of your doctrine of eternal conscious torment in Hell.
Your post that I was responding to said this:
Is THAT "kindly affectioned one to another"???
Was THAT "brotherly love"???
Was THAT "in honour preferring one another"???
Or was that exactly what it seemed to be, a baseless insult?
In fact, it was a bald faced lie, because I DO believe that Scripture says what it says and means what it says. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? Does it say that those who reject Christ will perish or does it say that those who reject Christ will be tortured alive forever?
If I am not a Christian because I insulted you for being stupid, remember that you insulted me first. So by your own standard, you are not a Christian. And I have proof that you are too stupid to understand what the Bible says. The Bible says that the wicked will perish and the Bible says that the wicked will be no more. You can't understand that this means that the wicked will perish and the wicked will be no more. You seem to think that "The wicked will perish" means that the wicked will never perish. That's being too stupid to understand what "the wicked will perish" means. You also seem to think that "the wicked will be no more" means "the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured alive, That's being too stupid to understand what "the wicked will be no more" means. Psalm 37:20, and Psalm 37:10. Just because I point out the plain fact that you are stupid, doesn't mean that I am not a Christian. It just means that I am observant.
Go and do some homework on eternal in the greek and find the truth,God is LOVE.
The word is αἰώνιος. Here is the definition:
age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
Are you claiming that God tortures people in hell because He LOVES them?
You only believe in Matthew, Mark, and Luke and reject the rest of the Bible, why should anybody trust your opinion?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
defining terms.........
defining terms.........
Indeed much focus is on an assumption of how words are interpreted. An 'eon' is an indefinite period of time, but in no wise is intended to mean 'unending' or 'eternal' necessarily. Infinite LOVE could never will or impose an eternity of suffering upon any sentient being. Such insanity is outside of the divine will.
My views on ECT elaborated here.
See the Battle Royal between logos_x and Pastor Kevin here
defining terms.........
Indeed much focus is on an assumption of how words are interpreted. An 'eon' is an indefinite period of time, but in no wise is intended to mean 'unending' or 'eternal' necessarily. Infinite LOVE could never will or impose an eternity of suffering upon any sentient being. Such insanity is outside of the divine will.
My views on ECT elaborated here.
See the Battle Royal between logos_x and Pastor Kevin here
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Consider the nature and will of infinite love. This love could never impose, inflict or sanction an eternity of suffering to no end on any sentient being.
Simple gospel just escapes them.
The rich man was conscious in another place, but as he had previously died he has been raised from the dead, as the poor man was.
The timing can only be after judgment but before being cast into hell.
I doubt that the aborted babies of the wicked will be in any hell, just perished.
LA
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
To be fair, and based on some of his other posts, I think he's claiming the opposite. That God restores all and that love, or Divine love at 'least' conquers all.
That was unclear. Thanks for clearing that up. The arguments for eternal conscious torment are incoherent, so I thought he was arguing that God tortures people because he loves them. That argument is just as bad as all of the other arguments I've heard for eternal torture. I no longer expect those who are pro-torture to be "logical", "biblical" or "coherent".
You mean God is a sadistic thug, that is why I reported your last post, you can call me anything you like chum, but if I preach what God says then it is He you are calling out.
This is what I mean
You admit the sinner is in an intermediary place of torment don't you, you claim falsely that it is God's fault. This intermediary state has already lasted for 2, 000 years and if there is to be another 1, 000 years then in total he will have spent 3, 000 years in torment...if he had sinned and died at the beginning it is 9 thousand years of what you call torture.
So according to your own reasoning it is God who is the cruel sadistic thug.
This is another crafty lie, which you yourself have already contradicted in your argument concerning the parable of Lazarus and Dives.
Wicked people say "once you die you're dead forever and that is all there is" there will be no calling to account.
You are confirming to them what they already believe, it is this lie which gives them the boldness to sin with a high hand. That is why God will hold YOU responsible for their sins.
I agree. I've been informed that Eddie is not on the side of eternal conscious torture, but I still don't understand how the others can read the Bible and come away from it thinking that torture is a good idea, even a divine plan. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord. Sin is the enemy. Death is the result. Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin and death. It is insane to think that our Hero will turn around and torture those He came to rescue.
Why don't we all agree that the doctrine of eternal torture was a wrong turn and just bury that doctrine once and for all? :rip:
I believe that the wicked will be destroyed. Can you explain to me why it is that you think being destroyed is a good thing? That doesn't make any sense to me.
You are really twisting what I am saying. If wicked people sin because I tell them that the wicked will be destroyed, then they are as confused as you are.
Re-read the parable of Dives. In the parable, the rich man's brothers are still alive. If this parable is talking about what happens to the wicked at the end of time, why are the rich man's brothers still alive? Can you answer that? Since the parable is not talking about the final state of the unrepentant, it is not proof that the unrepentant will be tortured alive for all eternity. The parable doesn't even say that Dives was being tortured for all eternity.
Read John 3:16 and tell me what it says. I'm not trying to trick you. I'm trying to get you to understand what the Bible says. Don't ignore this, go now to John 3:16, copy it and put it into your next post. Look at it. It tells the fate of those who believe and those who reject God. Those who believe will not perish and will have eternal life. Those who reject God will perish and will not have eternal life. I'm not trying to trick you, read John 3:16 and tell me what it says.
You misunderstand me dear.
I do not think that God is a sadistic thug. I think you are a sadistic thug, and your idea of God is twisted by your sadism. Since you are a sadistic thug, you do not want a god who is not sadistic. You have reinvented God in your image. Perhaps if you did not love the idea of eternal conscious torture so much, your mind would clear and you would be able to read the Bible clearly.
I'm serious, read John 3:16 and tell me what it says. Does it even come close to saying that those who perish will not perish but they will be tortured alive forever in hell instead of perishing? Read John 3:16 and tell me what it says.
John 3:16 Totten?
Why are you avoiding what the Bible says? I'm not trying to trick you, just look at John 3:16 and tell me what you think it says. You've said some very harsh things to me and about me. Read John 3:16. Tell me what you think it says. No tricks, Just the Gospel. Tell me what John 3:16 says.
Why are you avoiding what the Bible says? I'm not trying to trick you, just look at John 3:16 and tell me what you think it says. You've said some very harsh things to me and about me. Read John 3:16. Tell me what you think it says. No tricks, Just the Gospel. Tell me what John 3:16 says.