God is Just, not sadistic.
What most of you believe is sadistic god.
Read what Jesus says in John 3-16.
there is no reason for God to torment anyone eternity.
Get real, dude.
God is Just, not sadistic.
What most of you believe is sadistic god.
Read what Jesus says in John 3-16.
there is no reason for God to torment anyone eternity.
Get real, dude.
Scripture is truth! Rev 20:15
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Something you would have to admit really.
Do you think that everyone who has doubts is making some conscious choice 'not to believe'? If you're one of these people who reduces the whole thing to black and white/one or the other deals then it's pointless even conversing with you. You amount to nothing more than an indoctrinated robot if you can't at least reason out of your doctrinal box...
'Turn or burn' eh? Do you have any sort of empathy and understanding for other people?
Er, no. You might think it's "just" for other people to suffer unending anguish and torment but then I've yet to see any resemblance of compassion from you for other people but rather a guy rigidly set to a doctrine that won't allow it.
I've questioned it plenty of times thanks, more so than you would know.
You're not answering my question. If you're so confident you have the "truth" then tell me as to whether or not a 15 year old boy who's committed suicide is rotting away in "hell", otherwise can it frankly.
Oh please, unless you regard death as a tangible object that can be 'cast into' somewhere then it seems blatantly obvious that the lake of fire is symbolism and Revelation is steeped in that. I could quote you a bunch of verses about the restoration of all as well as the translation of verses from the original texts that contradict unending torment but I presume you're already aware of all of that?
No, but not interested in blind unquestioning fundamentalism either.
way 2 go
Well-known member
not sadistic (deriving pleasure from extreme cruelty)
Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Keeping people in a state of interminable inescapable suffering is extreme cruelty. That's what you believe happens with your "hell" doctrine and such would have to be imposed. Still, as long as it's 'just' for other fallible human beings - such as yourself as long as it isn't you - then it's righteous.
The mind boggles at just how horrific and warped people's mindsets can get.
They don't understand the meaning of "God is love".
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
How anyone can possibly deny eternal conscious torment is simply beyond me.
Love, logic, compassion, empathy, understanding, etc. Sorry if you're not familiar with any of those.
lain:
way 2 go
Well-known member
I am not open minded ,garbage cans are a symbol of open minded
Jesus was very black or white
Mat_12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me,
Is Jesus the God of justice. I trust his judgement ,you?
Isa_30:18 Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.
your the one telling people God is not just
that they can sin and face no consequences
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Mat_12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
suicide is not the unforgivable sin and I'm not the judge
Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
death is a place in this case
Rev 20:14
the word "run" has many meanings so does death\dead
death as a place Rev 20:14 Job 28:22
death spiritually Mat 8:22 Mat 22:32
death physically Mat 16:28 Luk 13:3
fundamental -serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying:
lets question
what is the result of what i believe if I'm right , if I'm wrong?
what is the result of what you believe if your right, if your wrong?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Are you completely closed minded to anything that goes against your set doctrinal belief?
You're the one that seems to determine what "justice" has to be given your doctrine won't allow for anything besides eternal torment. Correct?
No I'm not. I'm arguing against a doctrine whereby the only form of "justice" or 'consequence' is apparently unending torturous suffering for people other than yourself. If you can't see the difference then there really isn't any point in trying to hold a rational conversation with you.
Then you should be mindful of your own careless words as well then. I'm not being careless where I categorically state that any God who would condemn a 15 year old boy to eternal torment is not one of love but the complete antithesis of any understanding of it by way of.
So which "death" is cast into the lake of fire then? Which "death" is the last 'enemy' to be destroyed etc? It's symbolic all ways up.
If you're right it would have been better if nobody was ever created as there wouldn't be countless billions of people suffering in a hideous realm of torment and nobody else would know the difference. The most sadistic human on earth couldn't hold a handle to the torment that you believe in and believe it or not your doctrine generally repels anyone with an ounce of compassion in them.
Do the math.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
freelight's views............
freelight's views............
How anyone could believe a loving and just 'God' could enforce, sanction and sustain an interminable sentence of 'eternal conscious torment'(ECT) on his own offspring is nothing short of insane. It is illogical to love. The whole eternal hellfire doctrine is pure insanity.
My objections and explorations on ECT are explored here and elsewhere. Its sickening really. ECT can be addressed/challenged on many different levels, in the light of divine justice and mercy, but on ethical/philosophical grounds alone it fails on principle, and denigrates God's character, to say nothing of his divine wisdom or love.
As shared before,...the universal law of karma(action/consequence) ever holds in all realms of conditional existence,...because the law of cause/effect is the law of compensation....these are just measures as far as the meting out of judgments are concerned, but these are mediated by laws and principles themselves acting out their own intrinsic potentials.
The bigger picture of a divine personality (God) or personalities in a heavenly tribunal (Gods/gods) judging the destiny of souls takes place in its another context, as these intelligences are qualified by their own nature, wisdom or evolution to adjudicate such matters, seeing what souls have made a final decision of rejection of God (to undergo eternal death) and those souls who qualify for survival (choosing repentance; choosing life). - in this scenario...there is no senseless eternal suffering/torment sentenced upon souls, for those souls who make a final decision to reject life, embrace DEATH, and are 'disintegrated'. Those souls who choose life, accept the gift of life (immortality)...this 'immortality' being 'conditional' on their acceptance of such (hence the term 'conditional immortality') - one's 'freedom of choice' is held to be almost 'sovereign' in this matter. In my view so far,...the 'conditional immortality' view (which includes 'soul-death') is more logical and merciful on certain grounds than ECT, hence my continued exploration in this direction.
Of course there is the more pure Spiritualist-Universalist view that all souls eventually/ultimately re-turn to Source - there may be periods of sin, but the power of divine will and love ultimately triumphs for the will of God is SUPREME. This is also a view I've held more or less in the past, so I've a romantic affinity with this, but still hold open the 'conditional-immortality' perspective.
freelight's views............
How anyone can possibly deny eternal conscious torment is simply beyond me.
How anyone could believe a loving and just 'God' could enforce, sanction and sustain an interminable sentence of 'eternal conscious torment'(ECT) on his own offspring is nothing short of insane. It is illogical to love. The whole eternal hellfire doctrine is pure insanity.
My objections and explorations on ECT are explored here and elsewhere. Its sickening really. ECT can be addressed/challenged on many different levels, in the light of divine justice and mercy, but on ethical/philosophical grounds alone it fails on principle, and denigrates God's character, to say nothing of his divine wisdom or love.
As shared before,...the universal law of karma(action/consequence) ever holds in all realms of conditional existence,...because the law of cause/effect is the law of compensation....these are just measures as far as the meting out of judgments are concerned, but these are mediated by laws and principles themselves acting out their own intrinsic potentials.
The bigger picture of a divine personality (God) or personalities in a heavenly tribunal (Gods/gods) judging the destiny of souls takes place in its another context, as these intelligences are qualified by their own nature, wisdom or evolution to adjudicate such matters, seeing what souls have made a final decision of rejection of God (to undergo eternal death) and those souls who qualify for survival (choosing repentance; choosing life). - in this scenario...there is no senseless eternal suffering/torment sentenced upon souls, for those souls who make a final decision to reject life, embrace DEATH, and are 'disintegrated'. Those souls who choose life, accept the gift of life (immortality)...this 'immortality' being 'conditional' on their acceptance of such (hence the term 'conditional immortality') - one's 'freedom of choice' is held to be almost 'sovereign' in this matter. In my view so far,...the 'conditional immortality' view (which includes 'soul-death') is more logical and merciful on certain grounds than ECT, hence my continued exploration in this direction.
Of course there is the more pure Spiritualist-Universalist view that all souls eventually/ultimately re-turn to Source
- there may be periods of sin, but the power of divine will and love ultimately triumphs for the will of God is SUPREME. This is also a view I've held more or less in the past, so I've a romantic affinity with this, but still hold open the 'conditional-immortality' perspective.
M
Man.0
Guest
way 2 go
Well-known member
like for example karma ,against it, closed minded to it
what other options did Jesus give for the wicked ?
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
if it is not eternal punishment then
you could pay for your own sin and Jesus would not have had to die.
death is a place in this case
Rev 20:14
no more sinful flesh bodies to die
:nono:
Jesus is a big meany that's why he was crucified
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
good news bad news
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Or anything that contradicts eternal suffering for other people?
Are you serious? You take this literally despite the plethora of biblical scholars who regard it as a parable? How many people do you know who can talk if they're actually in flame?
That isn't any sort of logical argument. Why would it necessarily have to be eternal suffering?
So says you although you're not supporting that presumption with anything and you'd be hard pressed to. Frankly it's just bizarre...
So death is destroyed but still goes on, or the place is destroyed but the state continues. This is just plain nuts.
Wow, convincing argument there...
lain: No, it's rather people like you with their callous attitudes towards other people just like yourself that grate. Never lied? Never lusted? It's just so easy to write other fallible folk off as wicked, sit in an armchair and pompously pontificate on the justification for their being in unbearable torment instead isn't it?
So not actually good news after all then, well, except for people like you apparently.
How anyone can possibly deny eternal conscious torment is simply beyond me.
Well, start by believing what the Bible says:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have eternal life.
If you believe that is true, then you can't possibly deny that those who receive the Son will receive eternal life and they will not perish, but those who reject the Son will not receive eternal life and they will perish. How you can read John 3:16 and still believe in eternal conscious torture is beyond me. Eternal Torture directly CONTRADICTS what the Bible says!
Aimiel
Well-known member
God said it. That settles it. You can believe it or not. I choose faith.
Everything God has said is sacrilige to your new age dregs.
You don't know Him, obviously, or fear Him... which is merely the beginning of wisdom.
One who sows faith in Christ reaps everlasting life because God sowed His Son to reap millions of sons.
Scripture doesn't teach such. ECT is the fate of all liars.
One must eat Christ's Flesh and drink His Blood to have any part in Him.
It is appointed unto men ONCE to die. That makes a second death impossible. It's why ECT is called the 'second death'.
Maybe Revelation 14:11 is closer to what have been thinking about?
Revelation 14:11Modern English Version (MEV)
11 The smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever. They have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Aimiel
Well-known member
Not MY Bible, because I haven't cut any Scriptures out of It or re-defined any words to make It say what I want It to.
Aimiel
Well-known member
He doesn't believe that Scripture says what it says, he believes what he believes because that's what he wants to believe. Don't try to confuse him with the facts.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It is CALLED 'second death,' but it isn't DEATH, since it would make this Scripture into a lie:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
After ONE death (men are not put to death twice, according to Scripture) then men face judgment. There they are either given eternal life or they are cast into torment in flames in the Lake of Fire.