The sadistic thug is not the one who put's up the "Danger Keep Out" sign in a mine field the evil one is the one who takes it down
The sign says, "Danger, Keep Out. Dangerous Mines. Mines can Destroy You"
I don't take the signs down, I warn people that Mines can kill.
People perish when they step on a mine. Only a Sadist tortures people in a minefield.
When I was in the Navy, I was part of a mine hunting team in the Persian Gulf. When my team found a mine, the divers swam down and attached explosives to the mine and destroyed it. Do you know why? So that no sailors would ever be killed by mines! Nobody was tortured by the mines.
Now, I see that you haven't looked at John 3:16 yet. Go ahead and look at it and tell me what it says. No tricks, just the Gospel.
You have had to concede that death does not mean to cease to exist
The wicked will have a second death, and at that death they will cease to exist.
Psalm 37:10 says "the wicked shall be no more".
You still haven't looked at John 3:16. You should. It confirms what I am saying and it refutes the doctrine of eternal torture in hell. Look at John 3:16 and tell me what it says in your Bible. Why aren't you doing this? Is it because you know that John 3:16 refutes your UnBiblical Doctrine?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
death is death
death is death
Hi TL,
Besides what ive already shared about the insanity of ECT here and elsewhere,...the 'second death' does appear to be 'destruction', a disintegration, an expunging of conscious existence...at least for that individual personality. A soul undergoing this death is final, there is no resurrection from such a death for that individual soul and its potential for survival. Somehow that soul forfeited its life-potential, and is dissolved back into the elements. Any thing of eternal/divine value is returned to the OverSoul of creation. I cover some of the metaphysics involved, - the Urantia Papers offer an interesting description of such. So, in this scenario.....some souls do DIE. This 'death' is 'death' in the total, final, absolute sense of the word. This 'death' does not infer ECT at all.....since 'death' is the cessation/absence/annulment of life. All potential for life/consciousness is terminated.
This view of 'conditional immortality' has more going for it than ECT, since the latter is a concept that is insane, ilogical, irrational, and furthermore is against all that is just and merciful, contrary to divine will. Infinite Love could never impose, enforce or inflict eternal suffering TO NO END on any conscious being. Such an 'belief' is worse than 'satanic'.
There is another school of universalism that also offers better solutions than ECT but these would need more space to explore, as Im a student of these possibilities as well
death is death
Hi TL,
Besides what ive already shared about the insanity of ECT here and elsewhere,...the 'second death' does appear to be 'destruction', a disintegration, an expunging of conscious existence...at least for that individual personality. A soul undergoing this death is final, there is no resurrection from such a death for that individual soul and its potential for survival. Somehow that soul forfeited its life-potential, and is dissolved back into the elements. Any thing of eternal/divine value is returned to the OverSoul of creation. I cover some of the metaphysics involved, - the Urantia Papers offer an interesting description of such. So, in this scenario.....some souls do DIE. This 'death' is 'death' in the total, final, absolute sense of the word. This 'death' does not infer ECT at all.....since 'death' is the cessation/absence/annulment of life. All potential for life/consciousness is terminated.
This view of 'conditional immortality' has more going for it than ECT, since the latter is a concept that is insane, ilogical, irrational, and furthermore is against all that is just and merciful, contrary to divine will. Infinite Love could never impose, enforce or inflict eternal suffering TO NO END on any conscious being. Such an 'belief' is worse than 'satanic'.
There is another school of universalism that also offers better solutions than ECT but these would need more space to explore, as Im a student of these possibilities as well
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True.
The Bible teaches punishment before annihilation throughout.
The raising from the dead must occur before anyone is judged.
Luke 16 is a parable which no view fits exactly, but the truth intended in it is all that matters.
It certainly does not teach unending torture in hell, which is the RCC idea.
LA
Here's what John 3:16 says:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
I don't see how this isn't a slam-dunk for Conditional Immortality. I don't understand why you don't just say "Okay, you are right, the Bible teaches that people either have eternal life in Christ or they perish". I can't understand why you are still arguing against the truth when your doctrine has nothing going for it, and the entire Bible teaches that the only way to have eternal life is by faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible plainly teaches that those who reject the Son of God will perish. It is plain and simple. I don't understand why you reject this when it is written in the Bible as plain as day.
Aimiel
Well-known member
You seem to think that you already have all the answers and don't need to learn anything. I just wanted to leave you with your thoughts. :wave2:
Thanks. I don't want to argue about this with you any longer.
I will just leave you with this scripture, probably the most famous passage in the Bible:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God Bless, Aimiel
Ben Masada
New member
If birth is the origin of existence, how could death be any different from the cessation of existence?
you have to know what you are talking about
the death of the body
or
the death of the soul
the second death
you cease to exist with the last one
Ben Masada
New member
Chrysostom, the soul dies with the death of the body. As long as the breath of life is in the body, that's the only reason for the soul to live. Soul by definition is a person. When the Lord formed man from the dust, He breathed into the nostrils of man breath of life and man became a living soul. To become is to be and not to have. Hence, we are souls; we don't have souls. With death, the body goes to the dust and the breath of life returns to God Who breathed it into the body.
Zeke
Well-known member
Hi TL,
Besides what ive already shared about the insanity of ECT here and elsewhere,...the 'second death' does appear to be 'destruction', a disintegration, an expunging of conscious existence...at least for that individual personality. A soul undergoing this death is final, there is no resurrection from such a death for that individual soul and its potential for survival. Somehow that soul forfeited its life-potential, and is dissolved back into the elements. Any thing of eternal/divine value is returned to the OverSoul of creation. I cover some of the metaphysics involved, - the Urantia Papers offer an interesting description of such. So, in this scenario.....some souls do DIE. This 'death' is 'death' in the total, final, absolute sense the word. This 'death' does not infer ECT at all.....since 'death' is the cessation/absence/annulment of life. All potential for life/consciousness is terminated.
This view of 'conditional immortality' has more going for it than ECT, since the latter is a concept that is insane, ilogical, irrational, and furthermore is against all that is just and merciful, contrary to divine will. Infinite Love could never impose, enforce or inflict eternal suffering TO NO END on any conscious being. Such an 'belief' is worse than 'satanic'.
There is another school of universalism that also offers better solutions than ECT but these would need more space to explore, as Im a student of these possibilities as well
I don't agree, the Divine state of death isn't in danger of losing it's immortality seeing it was sent here to learn through experience in all phases of life and death which is being subjected to both good and evil.
Is it right that a infant dies before even having to face the tests on an equal footing with the others who have to endure a life time of them, or is it possible that we also died physically young or is that still on our Divine bucket list?. I am reluctant to make terminated list for Souls.
So you are telling others that your God is a dummy that anyone can choose to ignore Him, and to live whichever way they like the rest of their lives. They will vanish after that anyway.
That remains your blasphemy.
No.
Punishment exists before annialation.
and the greatest punishment is standing in the presence of God in ones sins and beholding the joy of the righteous standing with the judge.
Nevertheless, there is likely a thousand years of punishment for certain of the wicked--
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
A spiritualist view........
A spiritualist view........
If you follow my former portal-link of ECT discussions you'll see better into the factors involved in the differing viewpoints. A 'conditional immortality' perspective means a soul can choose to forfeit its life-potential, reaping the full penalty of sin, which is 'death'. In this context of free will, souls may truly choose life or death which are carried to their ultimate potentials....this all being governed and mediated by universal laws conditioned by choice. All potentials and possibilities are given to every soul, yet they are the choosers in their own life experience, and reap what is sown. There is seed-time and harvest.
In divine providence all possibilities must be allowed if souls are to learn, grow, evolve, become perfected....hence the grant of multiple life experiences. (We've covered other aspects of this in our Reincarnation threads)....but the concept holds whether souls re-embody here or elsewhere.....souls are adventuring in space-time as a journey of transformation. This is what life is about via creation. This is all that is going on.
Philosophically, Im a spiritualist at heart so hold those fundamental principles as being more or less true - See Cora Richmond's address on the 'Philosophy of Spiritualism' given in 1893 here. Also a synopsis on the 7 main principles of Spiritualism from the English school here.
A spiritualist view........
If you follow my former portal-link of ECT discussions you'll see better into the factors involved in the differing viewpoints. A 'conditional immortality' perspective means a soul can choose to forfeit its life-potential, reaping the full penalty of sin, which is 'death'. In this context of free will, souls may truly choose life or death which are carried to their ultimate potentials....this all being governed and mediated by universal laws conditioned by choice. All potentials and possibilities are given to every soul, yet they are the choosers in their own life experience, and reap what is sown. There is seed-time and harvest.
In divine providence all possibilities must be allowed if souls are to learn, grow, evolve, become perfected....hence the grant of multiple life experiences. (We've covered other aspects of this in our Reincarnation threads)....but the concept holds whether souls re-embody here or elsewhere.....souls are adventuring in space-time as a journey of transformation. This is what life is about via creation. This is all that is going on.
Philosophically, Im a spiritualist at heart so hold those fundamental principles as being more or less true - See Cora Richmond's address on the 'Philosophy of Spiritualism' given in 1893 here. Also a synopsis on the 7 main principles of Spiritualism from the English school here.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
One life to live...
One life to live...
As I've covered with Ben before as well,....his view of only one lifetime and the cessation of conscious life after physical death is somewhat nihilistic although his Jewish faith compels him to follow God's laws anyways as they apparently make for the best most rewarding way to live. The only drawback to his view is there is no compensation for good or bad deeds beyond this life, let alone the prospect of immortality, beyond some nebulous sense of man's spirit returning to God, but there is assumably no conscious element or personality to this 'spirit'. - from here we get into the deeper metaphysics of what a 'soul' or 'spirit' is.......but we'll leave it there for now.
One life to live...
As I've covered with Ben before as well,....his view of only one lifetime and the cessation of conscious life after physical death is somewhat nihilistic although his Jewish faith compels him to follow God's laws anyways as they apparently make for the best most rewarding way to live. The only drawback to his view is there is no compensation for good or bad deeds beyond this life, let alone the prospect of immortality, beyond some nebulous sense of man's spirit returning to God, but there is assumably no conscious element or personality to this 'spirit'. - from here we get into the deeper metaphysics of what a 'soul' or 'spirit' is.......but we'll leave it there for now.
truthjourney
New member
Isn't the Jewish afterlife called Olam Ha-Ba, the world to come?
"....there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.
The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.
Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people." See, for example, Gen. 17:14 and Ex. 31:14. This punishment is referred to as kareit (kah-REHYT) (literally, "cutting off," but usually translated as "spiritual excision"), and it means that the soul loses its portion in the World to Come. "
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
"In Judaism the belief in afterlife is less a leap of faith than a logical outgrowth of other Jewish beliefs. If one believes in a God who is all-powerful and all-just, one cannot believe that this world, in which evil far too often triumphs, is the only arena in which human life exists. For if this existence is the final word, and God permits evil to win, then it cannot be that God is good. Thus, when someone says he or she believes in God but not in afterlife, it would seem that either they have not thought the issue through, or they don't believe in God, or the divine being in whom they believe is amoral or immoral."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/afterlife.html
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They will not "vanish". They will be destroyed. There is a big difference. Why do you say vanish? You make it sound as if we believe the wicked will be transformed into the invisible woman.