Justification by Faith Alone

God's Truth

New member
Justification: God's work for us by Jesus Christ. The Gospel.

Sanctification: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit. The Christian life.

To confuse the two is heresy.

We are sanctified and justified by Jesus, and we have access to this grace by our living faith.

You cannot have the one without the other. They happen together, and they are so intertwined it is futile to try to separate them.

God does not give us the Holy Spirit to make us believe. Now you sound like a Calvinist.

We were SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus. Justified and sanctified are the same thing.

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:29); Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 2:11); We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:10).

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
 

God's Truth

New member
No, There is no saving merit in faith. Man is declared righteous and justified based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

However, no one will be saved without faith.

You cannot have ACCESS to salvation through Jesus UNLESS you have living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience.


Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
No, There is no saving merit in faith. Man is declared righteous and justified based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

However, no one will be saved without faith.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said to him, Receive your sight: your faith has saved you.
 

God's Truth

New member
I haven't the slightest doubt that any serious bible scholar could trash this idea were that person willing to waste his/her time. Go ahead and point me to where these apparent proofs are, in the thread, or if you can remember would you be so kind as to state your references?

Jesus died for our sins, and he did this on the cross.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross atones for our sins.

We do not have access to that grace unless we have faith that the sins we confess and repent of are washed away by his blood. Jesus' blood sanctifies us and justifies us.

The people used to have to justify themselves by the blood of animals.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


People misunderstand Paul about no works. When Paul says no works, he is speaking about the ceremonial works; he is not speaking about obeying God by doing right and abstaining from evil.
 

lukecash12

New member
Jesus died for our sins, and he did this on the cross.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross atones for our sins.

We do not have access to that grace unless we have faith that the sins we confess and repent of are washed away by his blood. Jesus' blood sanctifies us and justifies us.

The people used to have to justify themselves by the blood of animals.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


People misunderstand Paul about no works. When Paul says no works, he is speaking about the ceremonial works; he is not speaking about obeying God by doing right and abstaining from evil.

I see a case being made for justification through faith. However, you haven't established your claim that justification and sanctification are identical in the scriptures. That is what you were asked to support, because it is what you claimed.
 

God's Truth

New member
I see a case being made for justification through faith. However, you haven't established your claim that justification and sanctification are identical in the scriptures. That is what you were asked to support, because it is what you claimed.

Just because you say I haven't does not make it so.

When we are justified we are then sanctified.

Go study harder what I said, and humble yourself.
 

lukecash12

New member
Just because you say I haven't does not make it so.

When we are justified we are then sanctified.

Go study harder what I said, and humble yourself.

For the benefit of everyone else who isn't banned: these scriptures don't say anything about an internal change in someone's moral nature. They detail justification:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Once again, there is zero in these passages detailing sanctification. Maybe I should just "study harder"? "Humble myself"? I think we can do better than imply others have inferior biblical knowledge, that we should show some pleasure in giving a serious demonstration of scripture and it's interpretation. If anyone is going to pretend to deserve some respect, as if they can correct someone in how they are reading the scriptures, they had better have some serious knowledge and the ability to show it.

Merely repeating quotes ad nauseum is using the bible as a cudgel, not as The Word. It's not just what we're reading but how we read it, showing how we read it.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jesus died for our sins, and he did this on the cross.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross atones for our sins.

We do not have access to that grace unless we have faith that the sins we confess and repent of are washed away by his blood. Jesus' blood sanctifies us and justifies us.

The people used to have to justify themselves by the blood of animals.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The deeds of the law were circumcision, various external washings, the dietary law, the observance of special days, and animal sacrifices.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(Paul is NOT saying Abraham was NOT justified by obeying God; Paul is explaining that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law such as CIRCUMCISION.)


Faith in Jesus' blood justifies us, and not the ceremonial works of the old law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


People misunderstand Paul about no works. When Paul says no works, he is speaking about the ceremonial works; he is not speaking about obeying God by doing right and abstaining from evil.
I see a case being made for justification through faith. However, you haven't established your claim that justification and sanctification are identical in the scriptures. That is what you were asked to support, because it is what you claimed.
Justification and Sanctification are not the same In scripture, for Justification is a legal term, it has to do with being acquitted before God's law and Justice, whereas Sanctification has more to do with being set apart for God's Holy Purpose, they're related but not the same!
 
In the Bible, there are phases of sanctification. Some may find this good little write-up on the subject interesting.

The Sanctification of a Believer

The sanctification of the believer is in three realms: positional, progressive, and ultimate, reflecting the past, present, and future aspects of salvation. In Romans 8:1-11, Paul notes the reality of positional sanctification as the believer is in union with Christ, having been justified and declared righteous. Then He describes how this sanctification is worked out progressively in the life of the believer who walks according the Spirit. Positional and ultimate sanctification are entirely the work of God. Progressive sanctification requires the cooperation of the believer, who is commanded to be filled with the Spirit.

Positional sanctification – justification. At salvation, believers are justified, declared righteous in conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren” (Rom. 8: 29). This is entirely a work of God.

Experiential sanctification – spiritual maturity. The goal is Christlikeness, the result of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in producing godliness in the life of the believer. In essence, progressive sanctification is becoming in experience what we already are positionally in Christ. The Holy Spirit operates in believers to free them experientially from the power of sin and death. “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The progress of sanctification, or spiritual maturity, is marked by conflict, spiritual warfare, because our new life in Christ is on a collision course with the world, is opposed by Satan, and fought by the sinful nature within us. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that produces the tension or conflict in our life. This conflict in the life of a believer, rather than being proof sanctification’s absence, is evidence of its work.

Progressive sanctification is accomplished by the Holy Spirit as the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit as a result of having no unconfessed sin in his or her life. It is an act entirely of God so that the righteous man lives by faith and not by works. However, it involves a choice: “Be ye holy for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:14-16).

Ultimate sanctification – glorification. The final stage in the salvation process is the ultimate sanctification of the believer—the future glorification of the believer. It is realized at resurrection when the believer will be transformed into the likeness of Christ and presented to the Lord as holy. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer is both the promise of and the agency for this future glorification, which includes 1) the redemption of the body, 2) an inheritance undefiled and eternal, and 3) deliverance from the future wrath of God.

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory” (Eph. 1:13-14; cf. 1 Cor. 1:22).

Justification delivers from the penalty of sin

Sanctification delivers from the power of sin

Glorification delivers from the presence of sin​

Source: The Sanctification of a Believer
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
In the Bible, there are phases of sanctification. Some may find this good little write-up on the subject interesting.

The Sanctification of a Believer

The sanctification of the believer is in three realms: positional, progressive, and ultimate, reflecting the past, present, and future aspects of salvation. In Romans 8:1-11, Paul notes the reality of positional sanctification as the believer is in union with Christ, having been justified and declared righteous. Then He describes how this sanctification is worked out progressively in the life of the believer who walks according the Spirit. Positional and ultimate sanctification are entirely the work of God. Progressive sanctification requires the cooperation of the believer, who is commanded to be filled with the Spirit.

Positional sanctification – justification. At salvation, believers are justified, declared righteous in conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren” (Rom. 8: 29). This is entirely a work of God.

Experiential sanctification – spiritual maturity. The goal is Christlikeness, the result of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in producing godliness in the life of the believer. In essence, progressive sanctification is becoming in experience what we already are positionally in Christ. The Holy Spirit operates in believers to free them experientially from the power of sin and death. “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The progress of sanctification, or spiritual maturity, is marked by conflict, spiritual warfare, because our new life in Christ is on a collision course with the world, is opposed by Satan, and fought by the sinful nature within us. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that produces the tension or conflict in our life. This conflict in the life of a believer, rather than being proof sanctification’s absence, is evidence of its work.

Progressive sanctification is accomplished by the Holy Spirit as the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit as a result of having no unconfessed sin in his or her life. It is an act entirely of God so that the righteous man lives by faith and not by works. However, it involves a choice: “Be ye holy for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:14-16).

Ultimate sanctification – glorification. The final stage in the salvation process is the ultimate sanctification of the believer—the future glorification of the believer. It is realized at resurrection when the believer will be transformed into the likeness of Christ and presented to the Lord as holy. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer is both the promise of and the agency for this future glorification, which includes 1) the redemption of the body, 2) an inheritance undefiled and eternal, and 3) deliverance from the future wrath of God.

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory” (Eph. 1:13-14; cf. 1 Cor. 1:22).

Justification delivers from the penalty of sin

Sanctification delivers from the power of sin

Glorification delivers from the presence of sin​

Source: The Sanctification of a Believer

Right on!
 
Right on!

Somebody liked something around here? Are you running a fever?

The only thing I'd like to have seen in that write-up was verbiage to the effect sanctification means our being separated unto God, for His holy purposes, that aspect of sanctification occurring at the time of our salvation. (This is where we become aliens in this world.) Sanctification relates to the word saint. I have some old, muddled notes, not written as well, with things like that, but which aren't presentable to mankind.

Anyway, thank you! A couple aspirin may help get you back to being at each others' throats and the morass of bad exegesis.

Many blessings...

Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Somebody liked something around here? Are you running a fever?

The only thing I'd like to have seen in that write-up was verbiage to the effect sanctification means our being separated unto God, for His holy purposes, that aspect of sanctification occurring at the time of our salvation. (This is where we become aliens in this world.) Sanctification relates to the word saint. I have some old, muddled notes, not written as well, with things like that, but which aren't presentable to mankind.

Anyway, thank you! A couple aspirin may help get you back to being at each others' throats and the morass of bad exegesis.

Many blessings...

When Jesus sanctified himself, we were sanctified in him.

There are not many Christians on this Forum. That article is way over the heads of most on this Forum.
 
When Jesus sanctified himself, we were sanctified in him.

There are not many Christians on this Forum. That article is way over the heads of most on this Forum.

Ironic you should say this, which I'd agree is probably true, as the article is elegantly simple. To be frank, there is so much appalling spiritual blindness and refutation of simple basics of the Christian faith, things that genuine believers don't argue over, that it can only be tare behavior or trolling, if there is any difference between the two. I think many sociopaths lurk in web forums.

A lot of times, it's hard to find a thread that isn't out in left field and of any interest. It's not unreasonable, for at least a mature Christian, to expect a discussion and some exegesis that is in line with scholarship the past couple thousand years, not contrived nonsense and private interpretations that could only come from the likes of comic books. I don't see where fables, error and gratuitous, incessant, argumentative meanness are of any profit, or Christian, for that matter.

If I were looking for fiction, I'd rather read a novel, something at least well thought out and written with adult verbal skills.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ironic you should say this, which I'd agree is probably true, as the article is elegantly simple. To be frank, there is so much appalling spiritual blindness and refutation of simple basics of the Christian faith, things that genuine believers don't argue over, that it can only be tare behavior or trolling, if there is any difference between the two. I think many sociopaths lurk in web forums.

A lot of times, it's hard to find a thread that isn't out in left field and of any interest. It's not unreasonable, for at least a mature Christian, to expect a discussion and some exegesis that is in line with scholarship the past couple thousand years, not contrived nonsense and private interpretations that could only come from the likes of comic books. I don't see where fables, error and gratuitous, incessant, argumentative meanness are of any profit, or Christian, for that matter.

If I were looking for fiction, I'd rather read a novel, something at least well thought out and written with adult verbal skills.

Be thankful that you have the truth. It is now your responsibility to try and teach it to others.

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much is required" Luke 12:48.
 

lukecash12

New member
Ironic you should say this, which I'd agree is probably true, as the article is elegantly simple. To be frank, there is so much appalling spiritual blindness and refutation of simple basics of the Christian faith, things that genuine believers don't argue over, that it can only be tare behavior or trolling, if there is any difference between the two. I think many sociopaths lurk in web forums.

A lot of times, it's hard to find a thread that isn't out in left field and of any interest. It's not unreasonable, for at least a mature Christian, to expect a discussion and some exegesis that is in line with scholarship the past couple thousand years, not contrived nonsense and private interpretations that could only come from the likes of comic books. I don't see where fables, error and gratuitous, incessant, argumentative meanness are of any profit, or Christian, for that matter.

If I were looking for fiction, I'd rather read a novel, something at least well thought out and written with adult verbal skills.

Hear, hear! I'm often frustrated by this myself, and have noticed that each time I've gone into the real hermeneutic brass tacks, e.g. discussed linguistic issues, people clam up instantly.
 

lukecash12

New member
Falling back to limited areas of scripture and ignoring the repeated uses of kosmos elsewhere, an explicitly universal word, is not hermeneutics. It is confirmation bias, pure and simple. Limited atonement as a doctrine does damage to harmonizing texts.

Given the advanced state of linguistic knowledge and the discipline of theology today, limited atonement is hardly a rigorous enough proposition to stand up any more. At the very least, if we are truly being logical, we must accept that Jesus forgave all original sin.

1 Timothy 2:1-6

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Here we can see a statement in full context. Ho dous heauton antilutron huper pantOn. Christ gifts Himself as an "instead-loosener", or "redemption price" for all. PantOn is a Greek masculine genitive plural, and in light of it's grammatical function it can be translated as "any", "every", or "all".

In the absence of any qualifiers elsewhere as to who that "all" is, we already have grammatically explicit Greek in support of the doctrine of unlimited atonement.

But let's proceed further than that with John, in the second chapter of his first epistle, using a qualifier to explicitly communicate how that this "all" extends to the whole world, not just the elect. However we are going to treat that knowledge, if we arrive at universal salvation (a proposition that can clearly be established as not scriptural), or the covering of all original sin, it must be registered that Jesus made some form of sin payment for every single person.

1st John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

He is the hilasmos/atonement for the hamartio/misses/sin ou peri ton hemeteron, "not concerning only us", but peri holou tou kosmou, "concerning the whole world". John is painstakingly clear in this phrase when he applies holou, meaning "the whole", to kosmou, meaning in Greek "the universe".

We can struggle to understand, but let us not diminish God's achievement, in light of the price He paid and His sovereign prerogative to forgive as much as He chooses.

After this bit, there was one little peep about limited atonement, and nothing addressing this treatment of 1st Timothy 2:1-6 and 1st John 2:1-1 since. No one has yet established a reason why John wasn't talking about everyone when he very deliberate said holou tou kosmou. He could just as easily have used oikoumene for "the kingdom", or ges for "soil/earth", if he wanted to mean propitiation in a limited sense. But on the contrary, he says "whole universe".

[SIZE=+3]G[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]LORIA[/SIZE] in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis. Amen.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
When Jesus sanctified himself, we were sanctified in him.

There are not many Christians on this Forum. That article is way over the heads of most on this Forum.

Then you teach many of the sanctified ones in Christ shall eventually get cast into hell for their sins in unbelief !
 
Hear, hear! I'm often frustrated by this myself, and have noticed that each time I've gone into the real hermeneutic brass tacks, e.g. discussed linguistic issues, people clam up instantly.

Can understand this would be the case, if one were to go down into the original tongues, after all the first and foremost problem often the denial of clear scripture in the native tongue. One can be skeptical of those basing doctrines on their private word studies, though, which you see a lot of. I've actually avoided this practice on purpose, reserve such things only for when there may be some issue with the English that perhaps the Hebrew or Greek could shed some light on, but, even then, preferring to look at comparative translations. Many seminarians, including great preachers and teachers, know they aren't scholars of the original tongues, therefore use them sparingly. (I've seen an awful lot of people claiming a word means thus and such in the original tongues, investigate only to find there is either no such minor definition or nothing in the context to warrant a minor definition twist and altered scripture meaning: hence, people trying to use the original tongues to "prove" a private interpretation not really there, upon close scrutiny.) Personally, the concept I can come up with a better translation from dictionaries, that a committee of top scholars failed to find, doesn't even make sense.

What it is about web forums is more egregious than this, what I see. I see the deity of the Lord Jesus denied or impugned, grace by faith denied or impugned, the same with the rapture, many people of doubt, not faith, some outlandish, very basic eschatology that makes zero sense and conforms to nothing in scripture: people here are arguing all day long over a number of settled, baby's milk issues clear in scripture, butchering the very basics of the Christian faith. Just where is the Holy Spirit and His truth in such? So, what I'm saying is that I would expect to have discourse with somebody who has the basics down, anyway, on a purportedly Christian theology website, find it even a real bore, these arguments over Sunday school level theology. I have no desire to argue over who the Lord Jesus is, or what grace and salvation are. Does that make sense? What sort of discussion can you have with somebody who insists the basic gospel is wrong? And I never hear anybody, in a real church congregation, claiming things you read here or having these never ending arguments. I never see in real life, period, people arguing and repeating themselves for fifty pages, in any walk of life. Somebody who simply repeats the same thing, over and over, is even considered mentally ill, in the real world, somebody who makes a habit of gratuitously picking fights considered sociopathic and universally avoided. You even look at some of the shameful thread titles, and it's not of Christ, find myself asking, "Who are these people?" Anyway, a lot of days it's, "Move along. Nothing to see here." Unless you're a glutton for punishment and like arguing with straw men, but even that behavior sort of gets back to the sociopathy of a troll, does it not?

1 Timothy 6

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
 
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