Justification by Faith Alone

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Interplanner

Well-known member
Cruciform said:
  • First, note that Pate's comments here in no way do anything whatsoever to negate---let alone refute---my statements in Post #156 above.
  • Second, the Catholic Church is present throughout the New Testament, for example, here.

So much for Pate's latest feeble anti-Catholic claim. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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I clicked on your here link.

The first two items are easily dismissed. It was the confession of Christ as Messiah that was the basis. That's why other people in the picture there are Christians. That's why Acts 18 gives that summary (Jesus is the Christ) as the definitive thing about the movement. Peter is not mentioned.

On #2, Peter is not the only one with that power. All of them were granted all authority or power, because the message (to Israel first to create as many grounded missionaries as possible) was the Gospel of forgiveness for what is perhaps the worst sin in the world--that of crucifying the Lord. If grace abounds for that, and for a guy like Paul, then you have real power.

I guess you haven't paid too much attention to church history, because there is no point in trying to justify a statement like the Church is infallible. All that does is harden denial.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Interplanner said:
I clicked on your here link.

The first two items are easily dismissed. It was the confession of Christ as Messiah that was the basis. That's why other people in the picture there are Christians. That's why Acts 18 gives that summary (Jesus is the Christ) as the definitive thing about the movement. Peter is not mentioned.

On #2, Peter is not the only one with that power. All of them were granted all authority or power, because the message (to Israel first to create as many grounded missionaries as possible) was the Gospel of forgiveness for what is perhaps the worst sin in the world--that of crucifying the Lord. If grace abounds for that, and for a guy like Paul, then you have real power.

I guess you haven't paid too much attention to church history, because there is no point in trying to justify a statement like the Church is infallible. All that does is harden denial.
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Cruciform.


The New Testament, as well as Paul, was preoccupied with the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ.

You know, the one the reconciles sinners and the world unto God, Romans 4:5 and 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Nothing in your Catholic church about this.
 
W

whitestone

Well-known member
chrysostom said:
how do you know someone has faith?
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consider the word "obey", the atoms obey the voice of God and form together to form the things they are told. A tree obeys the voice and waist none of it's efforts trying to be a mountain. The Sun obeys and the Moon,the planets and the stars they waist no effort to become anything different than the will they are told by God,they remain on their courses as they were given they obey.

A man unlike these waist much efforts becoming something they are not created to be. A man disobeys from youth the very thing he is created and seeks after his own will. This is the same as we are told that serpent also does ,he does his own will instead of the Fathers.

This is confusing though because it seems that I say that there is salvation in works,(I do not). A good work is good to do and is the will of God. Salvation if by grace is not reckoned as if one obeys or not,but is a gift from God to man who was not yet created. The Savior was created first then those who were to be saved.

So if the Savior then being the only creature to which it is said is an "Savior" any who do not have faith that he is that Savior will attempt to save their own selves.

I say this become you ask how you would know who has faith. But faith in what,faith that they themselves are created and that they are also saviors? No,then again faith is of those who believe that Jesus and only Jesus is the Savior.

So if someone thinks that they should go through a religious type ritual to so that they are saved does it mean that they have faith that Jesus saved them or that in their faith they believe he did not?

So faith is something that every man has but not every mans faith is the same. One mans faith if he believe Jesus left him to save his own self,is in doing what he see's as lacking. Again someone who has faith that Jesus saved them and that it is complete,waist no time trying to obtain salvation for he has faith that he possesses it.

One is afraid,the other is not. One goes about the works of salvation the other does not. One is at peace,the other is not. One cannot thank the Lord for salvation for not seeing it,the other seeing it can and does thank the Lord for it.

It is quite easy to see who has faith if you examine what they are doing. One who doesn't have faith they are saved will seek salvation. The other who has faith that he is saved will rest from the works of salvation.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
whitestone said:
consider the word "obey", the atoms obey the voice of God and form together to form the things they are told. A tree obeys the voice and waist none of it's efforts trying to be a mountain. The Sun obeys and the Moon,the planets and the stars they waist no effort to become anything different than the will they are told by God,they remain on their courses as they were given they obey.

A man unlike these waist much efforts becoming something they are not created to be. A man disobeys from youth the very thing he is created and seeks after his own will. This is the same as we are told that serpent also does ,he does his own will instead of the Fathers.

This is confusing though because it seems that I say that there is salvation in works,(I do not). A good work is good to do and is the will of God. Salvation if by grace is not reckoned as if one obeys or not,but is a gift from God to man who was not yet created. The Savior was created first then those who were to be saved.

So if the Savior then being the only creature to which it is said is an "Savior" any who do not have faith that he is that Savior will attempt to save their own selves.

I say this become you ask how you would know who has faith. But faith in what,faith that they themselves are created and that they are also saviors? No,then again faith is of those who believe that Jesus and only Jesus is the Savior.

So if someone thinks that they should go through a religious type ritual to so that they are saved does it mean that they have faith that Jesus saved them or that in their faith they believe he did not?

So faith is something that every man has but not every mans faith is the same. One mans faith if he believe Jesus left him to save his own self,is in doing what he see's as lacking. Again someone who has faith that Jesus saved them and that it is complete,waist no time trying to obtain salvation for he has faith that he possesses it.

One is afraid,the other is not. One goes about the works of salvation the other does not. One is at peace,the other is not. One cannot thank the Lord for salvation for not seeing it,the other seeing it can and does thank the Lord for it.

It is quite easy to see who has faith if you examine what they are doing. One who doesn't have faith they are saved will seek salvation. The other who has faith that he is saved will rest from the works of salvation.
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Hebrews 4:8, 9, 10.
 
lukecash12

lukecash12

New member
Robert Pate said:
1 Corinthians 1:10-17. Click twice.
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Are we doing more reading in a vacuum, because it certainly appears so. 1st Corinthians 1:10-17 is at the beginning of a book where Paul was establishing to whom and why he was going to say what he had to say later in the book. He was addressing problems of internal division.

To entertain the idea that every different church has to be of the same mind, and that it's problematic to even mention the type of church you go to while discussing religion with another Christian who already should know you're a Christian, is living in an imaginary world. We're both Christians, yet I'm simply not going to agree with you on everything. In my church, we're basically of one accord as far as we are able. However, we certainly aren't of one accord with Roman Catholic or Lutheran Christians. That's why we don't go to the same church as them.

Were we alive in Paul's time I might be on the exact same page as you, frustrated that the churches out there aren't all following the apostolic teachings in their entirety. But let's not forget that even one of our NT writers, who wrote Revelation, told the church at Ephesus that they were emphasizing orthodoxy over orthopraxy, trying to root out every little misunderstanding and ending up as a divisive force themselves because they neglected orthopraxy.

Just read John's address to Ephesus, and read 1st Corinthians in light of that. Not everyone is going to be of the same accord and people in the apostolic age were well aware of it, even admonishing churches who emphasized all of the right teachings at the expense of an attitude more in line with the Great Commission.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
lukecash12 said:
Are we doing more reading in a vacuum, because it certainly appears so. 1st Corinthians 1:10-17 is at the beginning of a book where Paul was establishing to whom and why he was going to say what he had to say later in the book. He was addressing problems of internal division.

To entertain the idea that every different church has to be of the same mind, and that it's problematic to even mention the type of church you go to while discussing religion with another Christian who already should know you're a Christian, is living in an imaginary world. We're both Christians, yet I'm simply not going to agree with you on everything. In my church, we're basically of one accord as far as we are able. However, we certainly aren't of one accord with Roman Catholic or Lutheran Christians. That's why we don't go to the same church as them.

Were we alive in Paul's time I might be on the exact same page as you, frustrated that the churches out there aren't all following the apostolic teachings in their entirety. But let's not forget that even one of our NT writers, who wrote Revelation, told the church at Ephesus that they were emphasizing orthodoxy over orthopraxy, trying to root out every little misunderstanding and ending up as a divisive force themselves because they neglected orthopraxy.

Just read John's address to Ephesus, and read 1st Corinthians in light of that. Not everyone is going to be of the same accord and people in the apostolic age were well aware of it, even admonishing churches who emphasized all of the right teachings at the expense of an attitude more in line with the Great Commission.
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There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Every denomination has a different twist, or no twist at all to the Gospel.

Organized religon and the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ are not compatible. There is simply to much freedom in the Gospel. The organized church would not be able to control its members under the Gospel.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Every denomination has a different twist, or no twist at all to the Gospel.

Organized religon and the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ are not compatible. There is simply to much freedom in the Gospel. The organized church would not be able to control its members under the Gospel.
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You don't believe or understand those verses of scripture!
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Have you thought about finding a hyper-Calvinist web site.

No one seems to agree with you here, not even the other Calvinist.
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Have you thought about finding one that teaches Christ has failed to save them He lived and died for? Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief?
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
beloved57 said:
Have you thought about finding one that teaches Christ has failed to save them He lived and died for? Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief?
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Romans 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Ben Masada said:
Jesus would not contradict the Prophets of the Lord who had the command of HaShem to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; and Ezek. 18:20)
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You don't believe that Jesus obeyed the Law of God fully while He lived on this earth?
 
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