beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that millions for whom Christ died and made righteous Rom 5:19 shall wind up in hell lost in unbelief and unrighteous!
Justification by Faith Alone
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
You teach that millions for whom Christ died and made righteous Rom 5:19 shall wind up in hell lost in unbelief and unrighteous!
God's Truth
New member
Of course, we can obey Jesus.
Of course, people kept the commandments.
No, it is not evil to tell people to obey. God did not give everyone the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, so you are saying God has an evil heart for telling them to obey. Did you hear that? God told PEOPLE TO OBEY HIM IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES! That was BEFORE giving everyone who is saved the Holy Spirit---you are calling God a person with an evil heart! I knew you were a blasphemer, and now it is known more than ever.
Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
GOD TOLD THEM TO STOP SINNING, but YOU say WE CANNOT, and since I SAY WE ARE TO STOP SINNING that makes me a HYPOCRITE with an EVIL HEART!
I repeat what God says and you say I am a hypocrite with an evil heart.
Jesus says REPENT or perish. That is who I am copying.
I am doing what His Son says says to do, so of course, I trust Jesus and will stand before God, even now.
beloved57
Well-known member
Yall are hilarious, both of you teach Salvation by works, by what a person does. Salvation, being made Righteous and accepted of God for eternity, is solely by Christ's Obedience Rom 5:19 ! Both of you reject this Grace !
God's Truth
New member
There are righteous people before they had the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."
There were righteous people who obeyed God before Jesus came, and after Jesus.
Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.
Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.
John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."
Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...
1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...
1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."
Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”
Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Luke 7:4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this,
Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Matthew 12:35
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
Luke 8:15
But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
From these scriptures, we see that Jesus himself says there are good people.
Jesus Christ was righteous because of his father.
...how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14 NKJV)
God's Truth
New member
I repeat what God and Jesus says, and for that you call me a person with an evil heart. Now we know you blasphemed against God and Jesus.
Stop making things up. Tell us where the scripture says you will perish in the twinkling of an eye. You do not care about God's Truth. You should be afraid.
We are always repenting. We never, never reach the point where we say that we have arrived.
Paul says that you are a sinner, Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23.
John says that you sin also, 1 John 1:8.
I believe what the Bible says.
God's Truth
New member
John and Paul say no such thing.
Why are you always repenting?
You sound like a Catholic.
Always repenting and never obeying.
Are you denying that Paul said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.
Are you denying that John said, "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1:8.
lukecash12
New member
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you on this. I just remembered we had a discussion going on justification.
For starters, I understand that in both Thomism and Molinism, one must accept a measure of grace in order to act in penitence. I also understand that part of the gulf here is our disagreement over whether or not there is a purgatory, and what constitutes a good set of hermeneutic principles.
If there is a stage where we have to work out, with God, our sanctification all the way to the point of glorification, then yes, Thomism or Molinism can be a acceptable soteriology. We agree that Jesus' work of atonement is the grounds for our justification, and I understand the Catholic perspective that the means by which God can gift us with progress during the process of sanctification is His already finished work.
Oft used theological terms for disagreement here as to whether or not people pronounced righteous in the scriptures were truly righteous, are "forensic righteousness" and "legal fiction". While Reformed thinkers are irked by this concept, I understand that Catholic thinkers consider the Council of Trent, papal encyclicals, and a number of other traditions they view as having apostolic authority, supporting Catholic soteriology. Also, because of the deuterocanon they have different hermeneutic requirements when it comes to harmonizing scripture.
The basis of our disagreement, is whether all of the traditional materials can be reconciled with scripture, and whether the deuterocanon should be considered canon. There is so much difference on this that while we can appreciate each other as brothers in Christ, there is little room for us to have a meaningful discussion. We would have to engage in a detailed discussion about the canon, and whether there ever was such a thing as the mystical ordination of apostolic authority, in order to express well enough why we believe the way that we do.
God's Truth
New member
How do you ever get those scriptures say we do not have to stop sinning?
The Believer does not have to stop sinning, rather; he can...stop.
"Have to" is the Law's means of motivating, "can" is Grace's means of motivating.
Romans 6-8
God's Truth
New member
The Believer does not have to stop sinning, rather; he can...stop.
"Have to" is the Law's means of motivating, "can" is Grace's means of motivating.
Romans 6-8
The believer has to stop sinning.
How are you going to eat if you do not obey?
How are you going to have life if you do not obey?
If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, John 6:51. This bread is Jesus’ flesh, which he will give for the life of the world, John 6:53.
Unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, we have no life in us. Jesus tells us the truth, if anyone obeys his word, he will never see death, John 8:51.
beloved57
Well-known member
Christ obeyed God for many and made them righteous Rom 5:19!
God's Truth
New member
Jesus makes many righteous after they obey him.
The scripture says no such thing.
Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners.
You no longer qualify.
God's Truth
New member
Our obedience leads us to righteousness see Romans 6:16.
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe in the same Jesus as I do, He makes many righteous from His one obedience Rom 5:19 !
Interplanner
Well-known member
If GT is talking about personal transformation (sanctification), it's fine to say we make progress by obeying him. It is not true in the arena of justification, though.