Just One Gospel?

[drbrumley]

The Gospel of the Uncircumcision is a term Paul used to differeniate his gospel from that which was first committed to the twelve apostles.

E4E disagrees, so E4E or Sozo, if would please answer the following question for me, I would greatly appreciate it. And E4E, answer here, dont come to my room or wait till I come out. Thanks.

The fact sould be self evident that Paul had truth which the 12 did not have, A) for why would Paul insist that he had not received his gospel from man if, indeed he was preaching the same thing as the 12,

and

B) Why would God send him to Jerusalem by special revelation to make known his gospel to the 12 if they already knew it and were the first to receive it?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by drbrumley

The Gospel of the Uncircumcision is a term Paul used to differeniate his gospel from that which was first committed to the twelve apostles.

Paul preached to the uncircumcision, but his message was the gospel of grace and peace.

I'm simply wanting to understand what the disciples mindset was concerning the gospel of the kingdom. What did they think was the outcome of those who received their message? Did they preach eternal life? Or what? Did they preach salvation by faith?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Poly

The same thing that John the Baptist was preaching. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

What does that mean?

 

[swanca99]

E4E, you might also want to check out my post in "The Gospel" thread, post number 27. I doubt if it will convince you of anything, but I think it may at least help you understand the traditional dispensationalist view on the issue.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Sozo

What does that mean?

It simply means the 12 were expecting Jesus to return almost immediately and restoring the Kingdom. Isreal rejected the message of the cross and thereby were set aside until God decides to use them again.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Sozo

Paul preached to the uncircumcision, but his message was the gospel of grace and peace.

Right, but it wasn't the 12's message.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by drbrumley

It simply means the 12 were expecting Jesus to return almost immediately and restoring the Kingdom. Isreal rejected the message of the cross and thereby were set aside until God decides to use them again.

So when Jesus sent out the 12 to preach the gospel, and perform signs and wonders, their message was that Jesus was going to return from where? What did they believe that the Kingdom entailed?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Joy Dispenser said: If I were speaking of myself then the speech I us will be totally different than the speech you might use to describe me. So it is with Paul and Jesus. That does not make it a different gospel but a continuation of the same Gospel.

None of the examples others have given can be explained by a pronoun alteration. In some places Paul and Jesus outright contradict one another. That can’t be explained away as a pronoun issue.

For instance, Paul says that you should not follow the law (Galatians 3:11-3), and if you do Christ has no value for you (Galatians 5:2-3). Does Jesus say the same thing about the Law? No, Jesus says the opposite! Jesus says you must follow the law or you won’t get into heaven (Matthew 5:17-20; 19:17-20; John 15:10). Jesus rebukes Jewish churches for eating food sacrificed to idols (Revelation 2:14; 20) and Paul teaches that it is really okay to eat food sacrificed to idols (1 Corinthians 8:1-10). I fail to see how these contradictions are solved as merely misapplied pronouns. Perhaps you can enlighten us how these are really just pronoun issues?

I still believe you are trying to step us all back far enough that no details are viewable in order to say "See, they are the same". For instance, I would agree that they both taught Jesus, and they both taught love, and they both taught that you need faith. However there is a point at which the similarities cease, and the differences appear. If you can't explain the differences along with the similarities, and your solution is merely to ignore that there are differences, then I'd suggest you need to rethink your position.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Sozo

So when Jesus sent out the 12 to preach the gospel, and perform signs and wonders, their message was that Jesus was going to return from where?

Well, he ascended into heaven right? Which means he is coming and would have then come back from heaven. As a side note, Sozo, and please pay attention to this. When Jesus ascended, there was an angel who gave comfort to the apostles. You remember what he said? Here it is

"Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Please notice the you. The angels were talking to the apostles. It was Gods initial plan to have Jesus return very close to the time he left. This is important to grasp. The time was short. The apostles should have seen Jesus return. But because Isreal rejected the message of Peter, God gave them up for a time and then Paul became a apostle ( not part of the 12) to start a new plan with the Gentiles.

What did they believe that the Kingdom entailed?

As Poly eluded to, Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by ApologeticJedi

None of the examples others have given can be explained by a pronoun alteration. In some places Paul and Jesus outright contradict one another. That can’t be explained away as a pronoun issue.

For instance, Paul says that you should not follow the law (Galatians 3:11-3), and if you do Christ has no value for you (Galatians 5:2-3). Does Jesus say the same thing about the Law? No, Jesus says the opposite! Jesus says you must follow the law or you won’t get into heaven (Matthew 5:17-20; 19:17-20; John 15:10). Jesus rebukes Jewish churches for eating food sacrificed to idols (Revelation 2:14; 20) and Paul teaches that it is really okay to eat food sacrificed to idols (1 Corinthians 8:1-10). I fail to see how these contradictions are solved as merely misapplied pronouns. Perhaps you can enlighten us how these are really just pronoun issues?

I still believe you are trying to step us all back far enough that no details are viewable in order to say "See, they are the same". For instance, I would agree that they both taught Jesus, and they both taught love, and they both taught that you need faith. However there is a point at which the similarities cease, and the differences appear. If you can't explain the differences along with the similarities, and your solution is merely to ignore that there are differences, then I'd suggest you need to rethink your position.

:up:

 

[drbrumley]

Sozo,

I may have over simplified the answer to your 2nd question.

What did they believe that the Kingdom entailed?

Well, what was Jesus' ministry?

Matthew 4:23 (New King James Version)

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people

Matthew 10:7,8 (New King James Version)

And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

It was the same message as John the Baptist.

Matthew 3:1,2 (New King James Version)

In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

It is so important to realize Sozo, that the earthly ministry of Christ was not aimed at Gentiles but ONLY at Isreal. Jesus ministry was in the Dispensation of Law.

Galatians 4:4 (New King James Version)

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

The purpose was to call the lost sheep of Isreal back into right relationship with God through the baptism of repentancefor the remission of their sins. There is a big difference between calling a backslidden people back into fellowship with God and in bringing spiritually dead and alienated sinners into a saving relationship with God, you think?:think:

For the life of me, I can't remember where I found that paragraph but it is approriate.

Hope that helps you see my view alittle more clearly.

 

[elected4ever]

Pardon me but my mind is just not into this right now. I just can't believe that the courts would commit murder by assisting in the death of an innocent person or would involve it self in assisted suicide. Somebody is ling big time an an Innocent person is on a death watch. I am sorry but I just can't think or concentrate on this right now.

 

[Sozo]

You do understand that I am not disputing what you are saying, but rather trying to see the whole picture.

Right now there are lots of pieces to the puzzle, but I don't know where the box is with the picture.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Sozo

You do understand that I am not disputing what you are saying, but rather trying to see the whole picture.

Right now there are lots of pieces to the puzzle, but I don't know where the box is with the picture.

Thats cool Sozo. The box is the Bible with a timeline Put the timeline into place and you have your completed puzzle.

 

[drbrumley]

I know I over simplified that last post. Is there anything specific you want to look to at as it pertains to this topic?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Thats cool Sozo. The box is the Bible with a timeline Put the timeline into place and you have your completed puzzle.

I'm trying to get to the heart of this. I have a clear understanding of the old and new covenants, and that the cross is the dividing line. I simply have not heard anyone give a thorough explanation of what the 12 were proclaiming and what the outcome was for those who received their message. What is the gospel of the Kingdom?

 

[drbrumley]

Gospel of the Kingdom as found in Matthew 4:23?

 

[drbrumley]

It is my conviction the Gospel of the Kingdom is what we call the Old Testament. The Jewish Books.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Gospel of the Kingdom as found in Matthew 4:23?

That does not tell me what the gospel of the Kingdom is, it only tells me that Jesus mentioned it, and healed some people. Is the Kingdom getting healed?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by drbrumley

It is my conviction the Gospel of the Kingdom is what we call the Old Testament. The Jewish Books.

uh?