Jews And Gentiles Same Goal
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Rosenritter
New member
Romans 1:1-4 KJV
(1) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
(2) (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
(3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
(4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
According to Paul, this gospel is one and the same and not separable into different parts or different gospels.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God (verse 3) and declared to be the son of God by his resurrection from the dead (verse 4) and furthermore this gospel was declared by the prophets of the holy scriptures (verse 2).
Galatians 2:1-2 KJV
(1) Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
(2) And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Paul is also pretty specific that he preaches the that gospel to the Jews that he also preached among the Gentiles. This is in the same context as which he uses the words "gospel of the circumcision" and "gospel of the uncircumcision" (verse 7).
Jerry, so far I've only seen you present one scripture as a proof-text that there are "two different gospels" and the very context of that passage is preceded by a declaration that Paul preached the same gospel to the Jews that he also preached among the Gentiles.
I don't know why you are clinging to that one passage out of context to make it say something different, but there must be some reason why you think it is important, some other meaning that you've attached to that interpretation. Regardless, "vengeance" with "flaming fire" is promised for all those that obey not the gospel (SINGULAR gospel) of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8) so clearly there can only be one TRUE gospel.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Which gospel is it that saves from flaming vengeance when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven? There aren't multiple gospels unto salvation.
Right Divider
Body part
Why would Paul need to "communicate unto them that gospel" if it was the same gospel that they were preaching?
Different gospel, different teachers. They taught different ways to salvation. See for yourself; Acts 2:38, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Rosenritter
New member
Surely you're not suggesting that there's never a need to preach the gospel a second time in the same city? That doesn't seem like a very solid objection.
Right Divider
Body part
That makes no sense at all. You're out in a corn field somewhere.
I asked why Paul would need "to communicate to THEM THAT gospel that I preach among the gentiles" if there is only ONE gospel and they were ALL ALREADY preaching it.
Rosenritter
New member
Because you communicate again, and again, and again, as long as there are people to hear. I would repeat this a few more times and maybe you'd get it.... which I only say for an example of why I would preach the same gospel to you again, and again, and again, even though I have already been preaching the same to you and others.
There is one thing that I have asked of many people here, and have yet to receive any sort of straight answer. All requests for a proper definition of this "two gospel" gospel have been generally met with snide remarks or silence. Pointed questions based on statements already made usually are ignored.
While you may not be responsible for the failure of others in this regard, an argument from an undefined position hardly seems likely to bring about any resolution. If you would like to continue this discussion, would you be willing to clearly define your meaning, and continue to answer questions towards that definition?
Right Divider
Body part
Paul was NOT PREACHING THE GOSPEL to PETER et al.
Paul was COMMUNICATING to THEM the gospel that he preached among the gentiles.
Therefore.... it was NOT IDENTICAL to what they were preaching or there would have been no need to communicate IT to THEM.
Rosenritter
New member
How did you manage to read this and get the idea that Paul was preaching to Peter?
Galatians 2:1-2 KJV
(1) Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
(2) And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
The Jews at Jerusalem were preached the gospel that was also preached among the Gentiles.
Considering that the reference is always to "the gospel" (SINGULAR) and never "the gospels" (PLURAL) you would need some pretty definitive statements to justify what you claim, that there are different gospels with different content, means, and results. That's been entirely lacking from your side, regardless of the amount of yes men that appear to quip "Learn to Rightly Divide the Word of Truth!"
Logic and reason do not make any sense to some posters.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is the gospel which Paul preached to the Jews and it was according to prophecy. However, the one he preached to the Gentiles had been kept secret. The reason why this "mystery" was kept secret is because if it had been revealed prior to the Cross then the princes of the world would not have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).
Paul refers to this "mystery" as being a "hidden" wisdom, or something which was not previously revealed in the Scriptures. That is the same "mystery" that Christians are to preach to the unsaved:
"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith" (Ro.16:25-26).
The only "mystery" which Christians are to preach to the unsaved is the truth found in the gospel, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).
According to your ideas something which was "hidden" until Paul was revealed by the Old Testament prophets.
You don't KNOW how to 'Rightly Divide' the word of God.
Right Divider
Body part
Because of your statement above in response to my original question.
The communication that Paul was given by God to give was NOT for "people to hear", but to the church leadership in Jerusalem which included Peter and the other apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel.
Can you not tell the different between the Bible's use of the word COMMUNICATE and the word PREACH?
Communicate is only used twice in the Greek, whereas preach is used 61 times. They are not the same word.
So you say, but you are incorrect.
Ah. the old THE GOSPEL trick.... please explain how the GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION can be IDENTICAL to the GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION.
There are MANY gospels in the Bible. Gospel simply means GOOD NEWS (or good message).
There is no requirement that ALL GOOD NEWS be the SAME GOOD NEWS.
Rosenritter
New member
Thank you, peanut gallery. If you care to contribute, I am still looking for anyone representative of your position to clearly state what it is they are believing and be prepared to elaborate in response to questions.
Rosenritter
New member
1. You are drifting away from the force of the original point. Where you said that "different gospels" could be proved by their titles, those same titles are proved to be preached to both groups.
2. I do acknowledge that the gospel was revealed in the Old Testament prophets. Are you unable to see this? If you would be so gracious to define whatever gospel(s) you refer, and be specific about where they belong (and where they do not) I will show you where they are revealed by the prophets.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that. I said that one gospel which Paul preached was spoken of by the OT prophets and the other one was based on things which were kept secret and therefore not spoken of in the OT.
Why didn't you respond to what I said here?:
The reason why this "mystery" was kept secret is because if it had been revealed prior to the Cross then the princes of the world would not have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).
In the following verse Paul speaks of the gospel which was kept secret and hidden and that is why he says: "But NOW...has been made known":
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).
That is not the gospel which was revealed by the Old Testament prophets because Paul said that it was "now" being revealed.
I said
lol Look at it closely. There is only one Jesus Christ. That one Jesus Christ is the one who brought the good news, the gospel.Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is the one who died on the cross. How in the world can you call that two different gospels????
Rosenritter
New member
From King James source text, communicate occurs in 4 verses, 6 if I include communicated. Preach occurs in 44 verses. If I expand "preach" to include preached, preaches, and preaching we are up to 134 verses. Since you are attaching significance to those numbers, why are yours different?
If you are being picky about the word "communicate" and "preach' I will remind you that preaching implies communication. Preaching that does not communicate meaning is worthless. "Preach" includes εὐαγγελίζω and κηρύσσω: including to announce, declare, bring, herald, preach, proclaim, publish. Preaching is a form of communication. If you object to a synonym that "you communicate while there are people to hear" it seems that you are grasping at straws rather than substance.
Substantiation, please. I've been asking over and over for substantiation, which has not been forthcoming from you or other representatives of your position.
The same gospel is communicated to different audiences and one uses different approaches. One gospel with identical means and and identical end, just different starting points of understanding.
For consistency's sake, do you count God's message to Abraham that he would have a son as another gospel? If you are using different terms of reference to designate different gospels, do you also acknowledge fourteen different gospels within the New Testament? If the Sons of Zebedee had published "The Weekly Sun" would there be fifty-two different gospels every year?
Otherwise I don't see the New Testament writers making such a distinction. They consistently speak of the gospel, singular, not plural, and the only modern term for "gospels" means Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But if you can show me how there are different messages called "the gospel" that have different means and a different end, I may be willing to grant the existence of "different" gospels.
Rosenritter
New member
The princes of this world still walk in blindness and would crucify Jesus Christ again if given the same circumstance. But as I understand your meaning, you are saying there is a "known" gospel and an "unknown" gospel.
1. Are you saying these the only gospels or are there more besides these as RD suggests?
2. Please explicitly define what constitutes the "known" gospel including both means and results.
3. Please explicitly define what constitutes the "mystery" gospel that was revealed including both means and results.
... and please be specific if there are any shared elements in your descriptions. Otherwise it shall be assumed that these are unique and exclusive elements. And while we are at it, can you please use better names than "known" gospel and "mystery" gospel?