Jesus is God

[Right Divider]

God coming as a man and making himself nothing does not mean he is not God the Father come as a man in the flesh.

You defend Jesus as God and YET you do not even know who He is.

Jesus existed before the creation of ALL THINGS, since He is the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS. (Col 1:16)
Jesus and His Father have always existed as Father and Son. (John 17:5)
God the Father sent HIS SON and not "Himself" (1 John 4:9,10,14)

You should drop that "figures" stuff like a hot potato and become a Bible believer.

 

[God's Truth]

You defend Jesus as God and YET you do not even know who He is.

Jesus existed before the creation of ALL THINGS, since He is the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS. (Col 1:16)
Jesus and His Father have always existed as Father and Son. (John 17:5)
God the Father sent HIS SON and not "Himself" (1 John 4:9,10,14)

You should drop that "figures" stuff like a hot potato and become a Bible believer.

I already explained all that to you before, many times.

Good grief, at least try to remember what your opponent says.

God made the body of Jesus in heaven before the creation of anything.

You even post scriptures that you don't understand and in fact correct you.

You're a believer in your teachers, the Catholics. I'm a believer in my teacher, Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

John 17:21 has Jesus saying "Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us", do followers of Christ being "one in them" make them the Father or Jesus? If your answer is no then you must also admit that Jesus being "in" the Father does not necessitate that Jesus literally is the Father, your argument must be consistent.

Only Jesus can put us in him and in the Father. We cannot put people in God. Just because you might be in God and He in you, you still cannot put people in God, only Jesus can do that.


Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:9 I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

Hebrews 10:20 by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body,

 

[Right Divider]

I already explained all that to you before, many times.

Good grief, at least try to remember what your opponent says.

I don't care how many time you repeat your FALSEHOODS; I will repeat the TRUTH.

God made the body of Jesus in heaven before the creation of anything.

There is NO SCRIPTURAL support for that idea.

The Bible says that Jesus created ALL THINGS. THEREFORE, Jesus existed BEFORE ANYTHING (even His own body) was CREATED.

You even post scriptures that you don't understand and in fact correct you.

You are WRONG as per your usual.

You're a believer in your teachers, the Catholics. I'm a believer in my teacher, Jesus Christ.

I reject the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. You are a LIAR.

 

[God's Truth]

Where does the bible tell us God didn’t send an angel as His only begotten son?

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

 

[God's Truth]

I don't care how many time you repeat your FALSEHOODS; I will repeat the TRUTH.


There is NO SCRIPTURAL support for that idea.

The Bible says that Jesus created ALL THINGS. THEREFORE, Jesus existed BEFORE ANYTHING (even His own body) was CREATED.


You are WRONG as per your usual.

You are so confused.

God made the body of Jesus Christ before he made anything, and then He made everything through his body.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

I reject the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. You are a LIAR.

You believe in their trinity doctrine that they taught.

who are your teachers? Name them.

 

[Right Divider]

You are so confused.

God made the body of Jesus Christ before he made anything, and then He made everything through his body.

You keep making this CLAIM.... WITHOUT scripture to support it.

I've already SHOWN you the SCRIPTURE that says that Jesus created ALL THINGS. Deny scripture if you like.

 

[7djengo7]

Possibly we do not speak the same version of English, as I am in Australia and possibly you are in the USA. To give you the benefit of the doubt I looked up Webster’s instead of my Macquarie Dictionary. Webster defines these two words in the sense that I meant them. If you do not have a print copy then you may find an electronic copy – I used an electronic copy. Now after you look up Webster’s please check if the following shows that Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity, and my understanding of this is that Wisdom here is a personification, not a person.

Why are you still stonewalling against the questions I asked you?

When you say "Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity",

• what (if anything) do you mean by "separate"?
• what (if anything) do you mean by "entity"?

So far, you've refused to even try to answer either of these questions. Why is that?

You'll observe that I did not ask you what some dictionary editor may mean by those words. I asked you what (if anything) you mean by them, and so far you have not specified an answer to either of my questions.

"Webster defines these two words...."

Here is what Webster wrote in his entry for the adjective, 'separate':

SEP'ARATE, adjective [Latin separatus.] 1. Divided from the rest; being parted from another; disjoined; disconnected; used of things that have been united or connected. 2. Unconnected; not united; distinct; used of things that have not been connected. Christ was holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners. Hebrews 7:26. 3. Disunited from the body; as a separate spirit; the separate state of souls.

Which (if any) of these things do you mean by your word, "separate", when you say "Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity"?

Are you saying that, in Proverbs 8,

• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity divided from the rest]"? (From the rest of what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity being parted from another]"? (From another what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as a [disjoined entity]"? (Disjoined from what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as a [disconnected entity]"? (Disconnected from what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity that is a thing that has been united]"? (United to what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity that is a thing that has been connected]"? (Connected to what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an unconnected entity]"? (Unconnected from what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity not united]"? (Not united to what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as a [distinct entity]"? (Distinct from what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity that is a thing that has not been connected]"? (Not been connected to what?)
• "Wisdom is depicted as [an entity disunited from the body]"? (Disunited from what body?)

And, here is what Webster wrote in his entry for the noun, 'entity':

EN'TITY, noun [Low Latin entitas.] Being; existence. Fortune is no real entity 1. A real being, or species of being.

Is that what you're saying, when you call the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 an "entity"? Are you saying that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 is a real being, or species of being?

​

Proverbs 8:12–31 (KJV): 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Back to where this all started in our “discussion”, I suggest that the “Word” in John 1:1 is a similar personification to the wise woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8.

You've already demonstrated that you can quote from Proverbs 8, and that you can assert, and reassert, falsehood about it, and about John 1, without being able to rationally account for your assertions.

Do you feel better after your reassertion of your falsehood, and your failure to even try to rationally account for it?

I love how you keep referring to your mindless reassertion of your falsehood, and your mindless repetition of a Bible text, and your persistent stonewalling against the questions I've asked you, as "our "discussion"". You are, indeed, right to admit that you are trying to not have a discussion, and, of course, it is no wonder why you are trying to not have a discussion. Anybody who, like you, tries to take refuge in the "Just go look up--in any source you consider to be a dictionary--what I meant by what I said"-shtick, is thereby advertising that you know you have no answer to the question, "What did you mean by what you wrote?"

Since, by your "go look it up" shtick, you have deliberately granted me carte blanche to decide what you meant by your saying that "Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity", I'll go right ahead and take you up on your offer. Therefore, when you say, "Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity", you mean, according to Webster, that "Wisdom is depicted as a real being disunited from the body". That is what you have told me, by your "go look it up" reaction to my question. So, then, from what body are you saying Wisdom is being depicted as being disunited?

 

[God's Truth]

You keep making this CLAIM.... WITHOUT scripture to support it.

I've already SHOWN you the SCRIPTURE that says that Jesus created ALL THINGS. Deny scripture if you like.

Who is the liar? WHO?! WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES I posted with this post you supposedly quoted from me? You lied! You took my scriptures out of my post and then said I didn't give any.

Stop calling me a liar all the time. I get it you think I am one but stop being verbally abusive by saying it all the time every day.

 

[7djengo7]

God made the body of Jesus Christ before he made anything, and then He made everything through his body.

"He made everything through his body"??? LOL

This latest piece of your anti-Christ stupidity you've just handed us is, of course, nowhere to be found in the Bible.

 

[7djengo7]

Who is the liar? WHO?! WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES I posted with this post you supposedly quoted from me? You lied! You took my scriptures out of my post and then said I didn't give any.

Stop calling me a liar all the time. I get it you think I am one but stop being verbally abusive by saying it all the time every day.

Liar, stop lying by saying that you have used Scriptures to defend the anti-Christ stupidities you are promulgating. Your mindlessly quoting Scriptures is no defense for your stupidities; it is impossible to use Scripture to defend what is indefensible.

 

[Right Divider]

"He made everything through his body"??? LOL

This latest piece of your anti-Christ stupidity you've just handed us is, of course, nowhere to be found in the Bible.

She's got a story; it's not true, but she quotes lots of scripture... mostly misinterpreted due to the story.

 

[7djengo7]

She's got a story; it's not true, but she quotes lots of scripture... mostly misinterpreted due to the story.

True. But apparently we must not say that, since she considers it "verbally abusive" for us to state the truth.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

Are you saying that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 is a real being, or species of being?

No, Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a personification.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again 7djengo7,No, Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a personification.

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh, OK. So, here is Proverbs 8, according to your anti-Christ stupidity:

1 Doth not [a personification] cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 [a personification] standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 [a personification] crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, [a personification] call; and [a personification's] voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand [a personification]: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for [a personification] will speak of excellent things; and the opening of [a personification's] lips shall be right things. 7 For [a personification's] mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to [a personification's] lips. 8 All the words of [a personification's] mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive [a personification's] instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For [a personification] is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to [a personification]. 12 I [a personification] dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do[es] [a personification] hate. 14 Counsel is [a personification's], and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By [a personification] kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By [a personification] princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 [a personification] love them that love [a personification]; and those that seek [a personification] early shall find [a personification]. 18 Riches and honour are with [a personification]; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 [a personification's] fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and [a personification's] revenue than choice silver. 20 [a personification] lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That [a personification] may cause those that love [a personification] to inherit substance; and [a personification] will fill their treasures. 22 The Lord possessed [a personification] in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 [a personification] was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, [a personification] was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I [a personification] brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, [a personification] was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then [a personification] was by him, as one brought up with him: and [a personification] was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and [a personification's] delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto [a personification], O ye children: for blessed are they that keep [a personification's] ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth [a personification], watching daily at [a personification's] gates, waiting at the posts of [a personification's] doors. 35 For whoso findeth [a personification] findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord. 36 But he that sinneth against [a personification] wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate [a personification] love death.

That's what you've handed us, TrevorL. Don't try to blame me for the hilarious problem you've created for yourself by your application of your anti-Christ mindset against the Bible.

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again 7djengo7, Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity, a Wise Woman who was with YHWH when He created the earth.
Proverbs 8:1–5 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverbs 8:15–18 (KJV): 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Hmmm. Why--despite your having presented all of this text from Proverbs 8--did you choose to not present Proverbs 8:14, TrevorL? Here is what you chose to try to hide:

Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

​

Let's see, here. What is the antecedent of the possessive pronoun, 'mine'? That's right: "I, wisdom" (v 12) is the antecedent of "mine" (v 14). This means that it is wisdom saying "Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom"; in other words, it is wisdom that is calling something "sound wisdom", and it is wisdom saying that something it calls "sound wisdom" is "mine".

So, what of your "Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity", shtick? Would you like to say that "I, wisdom" (v 12) is "depicted as a separate entity" in relation to "sound wisdom" (v 14)?

In your post, #7150 (which TOL's software, on that particular thread page, is somehow preventing me from directly quoting in the normal way), you wrote:

Yes wisdom is a quality, and the purpose of the Book of Proverbs is to instruct us so that we may obtain wisdom​

So, since it is "I, wisdom" (v 12) who is saying, in Proverbs 8:14, that "sound wisdom" is "mine", I guess you are trying to tell us that sound wisdom is "a quality" of "I, wisdom".

In your post, #7145, you wrote:​

Wisdom is a quality that has many manifestations, and the source of wisdom is God. God used HIS own wisdom in creation.

Now, you say "the source of wisdom is God", and in Proverbs 8:14, "I, wisdom" tells us that "sound wisdom" is "mine". So, how did "sound wisdom" come to belong to "I, wisdom"? I suppose you want to tell us that "I, wisdom" obtained "sound wisdom" from God, the (as you term Him) "source of wisdom".​

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

So, what of your "Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity"?

Yes, Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity to Yahweh. Wisdom was with Yahweh in the creation. Proverbs 8 depicts Wisdom as a wise woman by means of personification.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again 7djengo7,Yes, Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity to Yahweh. Wisdom was with Yahweh in the creation. Proverbs 8 depicts Wisdom as a wise woman by means of personification.

Kind regards
Trevor

You've already repeated that rubbish. That rubbish is what you're supposed to be trying to explain and defend. Why can't you explain and defend it?

Proverbs 8:14 "depicts Wisdom as a wise woman by means of personification"?

Counsel is mine ["I, wisdom" (v 12)], and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Here, "I, wisdom" is saying that "sound wisdom" is "mine"--that "sound wisdom" belongs to "I, wisdom". According to your stupidity, in Proverbs 8:14, "a wise woman" is calling a sound "wise woman", "mine". No?

Counsel is [a wise woman's], and [a] sound [wise woman]: I am understanding; I have strength.

This is the stupidity you are handing us because of your penchant for blaspheming YHWH.

 

[7djengo7]

Thread title:

Jesus is God​

Original post:

Do you believe it?

We see that the TOL poll data has 84 "yes" votes, and only 36 "no" votes. Unfortunately, what we find is that some of those 84 "yes" votes are anti-Trinitarians, and thus, when they say "Yes. Jesus is God," they are nevertheless preaching a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible. For example, some unitarians (such as "oneness", or "Jesus Only" folk--modalist heretics) will say "Jesus is God", but by saying that, they mean that Jesus is God the Father. To preach that Jesus is God the Father is to preach a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible. For, the Jesus of the Bible is not God the Father; the Jesus of the Bible is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. To preach that Jesus is the Father, and that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and that the Father is the Holy Spirit, is to deny the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

One is not a Christian unless one is a Trinitarian, and thus, we find a phenomenon potentially quite deceptive to the unwary: non-Christians--nay, anti-Christians--who go about saying, "Jesus is God", while preaching anti-Christ doctrine.

One wonders, then, just how many of the 84 "yes" votes are actually Christians, rather than anti-Christ heretics who have found a way to deny the Trinity while saying, "Jesus is God".

(Happily, I can say that several here, on TOL, are my brother and sister Christians--you being one of them, Bright Raven!)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

You've already repeated that rubbish. That rubbish is what you're supposed to be trying to explain and defend. Why can't you explain and defend it?

I have explained my understanding of Proverbs 8, and the same concept of personification applies to John 1:1. You seem to have difficulty with simple words and ideas.

Kind regards
Trevor