Jesus is God

[meshak]

Of course meshak,

Then Jesus is not your Lord.

He says He is the way.

Why do you have the need to follow anyone else?

It seems that you don't trust Jesus is the way.

 

[TestedandTried]

We're talking about the greatest person who is assumed or attestted to have walked the planet, not just any joe blow.



That may be so, but it could still be that Jesus was a mythological figure that later got historicized, and the gospel were created as biographical narratives to envision or articulate a human Jesus. The gospels are not eye witness accounts (and are anonymous), and they were written decades after his assumed incarnation, some time after Paul's letters,....letters which tell very little of Jesus earthly life, as Paul focuses on a spiritual or celestial Jesus figure anyways. Sure, you can get all kinds of spiritual insights from the allegories of scripture written by various human authors under different degrees of inspiration or mere creative fiction,....we can also see this in the vast libraries of religious literature and inspired fiction the world over. Note Paul got his gospel from hearing a voice and seeing a light he believed was 'Christ', and further got his 'authority' from his OWN personal revelations and allegorical interpretations of the Old Testament, he got them from no man (he boasts), which further seperated him from the original apostles of Jesus in Jerusalem.

I'm just saying there's alot more one discovers when researching deeper into these issues. The story of Jesus, and even more so the BELIEF that he is God Almighty (an even more fantastical assumption) might be seen as incredible to some outside of the faith. This is all mind you subjective, in the realm of the imagination, what you CHOOSE to believe or dismiss, or entertain to one degree or another, its all relative. One absolute reality exists which we may call 'God' or 'Deity', while all else is relative, speculative and conceptual at best.

There is too much to be said to address ALL your misgivings individually, the bulk of them can be explained this way...
The Bible was written by 40 plus authors, or rather prophets, over 4000 years and reveal a consistent and cohesive prophecy of the Messiah and all fulfilled by Jesus just as recorded in the Scriptures. Each prophecy fulfilled stands on its own as powerful testimony, but Scripture contains over 400 prophecies fulfilled which defies the laws of statistical probability.
These facts are miraculous in and of themselves.

 

[TestedandTried]

We're talking about the greatest person who is assumed or attestted to have walked the planet, not just any joe blow.



That may be so, but it could still be that Jesus was a mythological figure that later got historicized, and the gospel were created as biographical narratives to envision or articulate a human Jesus. The gospels are not eye witness accounts (and are anonymous), and they were written decades after his assumed incarnation, some time after Paul's letters,....letters which tell very little of Jesus earthly life, as Paul focuses on a spiritual or celestial Jesus figure anyways. Sure, you can get all kinds of spiritual insights from the allegories of scripture written by various human authors under different degrees of inspiration or mere creative fiction,....we can also see this in the vast libraries of religious literature and inspired fiction the world over. Note Paul got his gospel from hearing a voice and seeing a light he believed was 'Christ', and further got his 'authority' from his OWN personal revelations and allegorical interpretations of the Old Testament, he got them from no man (he boasts), which further seperated him from the original apostles of Jesus in Jerusalem.

I'm just saying there's alot more one discovers when researching deeper into these issues. The story of Jesus, and even more so the BELIEF that he is God Almighty (an even more fantastical assumption) might be seen as incredible to some outside of the faith. This is all mind you subjective, in the realm of the imagination, what you CHOOSE to believe or dismiss, or entertain to one degree or another, its all relative. One absolute reality exists which we may call 'God' or 'Deity', while all else is relative, speculative and conceptual at best.

Also, in response to Jesus not being a regular Joe Blow...He was regarded as such by many...
Isaiah 53:1-11:
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8
By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

***I fear you spend more time trying to disprove Jesus then to do a critical analysis of the Scriptures so that you can be objective...not too scientific.

 

[God's Truth]

Son on earth, invisible in heaven, either way they are still the Most High. so again, who would the Most High pray to the Most High? does the Most High pray to someone when He is in heaven?

You are twisting it all up. God the Father really came as a man and He didn't pretend to.

When God the most high lowered Himself to that of a man in the flesh, He really was a man.

When Jesus prayed to God he did that for those standing by listening; and, the Father's voice speaking was just for the benefit of those listening.

 

[Lon]

what are your thoughts on it, why would Jesus need to pray to anyone when He was in fact the Most High?

If you can answer how someone can be 'with' himself 'and' himself at the same time? John 1:1 We don't have to 'figure out' God, we have to 'believe' God. I realize there is a conundrum but the Tri- -une position, specifically sees three distinct portrayals of one God: Father, Son, Spirit, One God. How? I don't know, it doesn't add up. I believe John 1:1 - Jesus was with God and was God.

 

[God's Truth]

If you can answer how someone can be 'with' himself 'and' himself at the same time? John 1:1 We don't have to 'figure out' God, we have to 'believe' God. I realize there is a conundrum but the Tri- -une position, specifically sees three distinct portrayals of one God: Father, Son, Spirit, One God. How? I don't know, it doesn't add up. I believe John 1:1 - Jesus was with God and was God.

Are your words WITH YOU? Are your words you?

Your words are with you and they are you, and they are not a second lesser you.

Jesus IS the Word of God and IS God.

There is only one God and HE IS THE FATHER.

 

[jaybird]

When Jesus prayed to God he did that for those standing by listening; and, the Father's voice speaking was just for the benefit of those listening.

i dont think Jesus would contradict His own teaching.

Matthew 6:5
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

 

[God's Truth]

i dont think Jesus would contradict His own teaching.

Matthew 6:5
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

So you are calling Jesus a hypocrite.

John 12:30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

John 11:42
I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me."

 

[JudgeRightly]

exactly, prayer is between man and the Most High,

More accurately, it is communication between the physical human and the spiritual God, emphasis on physical and spiritual.

not between man and man,

Correct. We humans have a simpler method of communicating, called speech.

Jesus, according to doctrine, is the Most High. so again, why would the Most High need to pray to Himself?

that would be two different individuals communicating with one another.

Correct. The Son (human, also God), the second Person of the Trinity, is communicating with the Father (Spirit, also God), the first Person of the Trinity.

if Jesus is the Most High, then you dont have two different individuals,

Remember Deuteronomy 6:4? "Hear oh Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

The word "one" in that verse, "echad" means "one of unity," not "one of singularity." "Echad" indicates a plurality in the LORD.

There are three (not two) distinct Persons in the Godhead. He, all three, is the Most High God.

you have one individual communicating with Himself.

To be more precise, you have three persons in complete agreement with each other, always in communication. He (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is God.

its like saying Jesus or the Father doesnt have control over His own mind.

Not at all.

 

[jaybird]

So you are calling Jesus a hypocrite.

umm no?? im not the one that is teaching Jesus prayed just to be seen praying.

John 12:30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

John 11:42
I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me."

these are not empty prayers, Jesus even thanks the Father for hearing Him pray.

 

[jaybird]

Correct. The Son (human, also God), the second Person of the Trinity, is communicating with the Father (Spirit, also God), the first Person of the Trinity.

if Son is Most High, and Father is Most High, then you have the Most High praying to the Most High. what need would the Most High have to pray to anyone?

Remember Deuteronomy 6:4? "Hear oh Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

The word "one" in that verse, "echad" means "one of unity," not "one of singularity." "Echad" indicates a plurality in the LORD.

There are three (not two) distinct Persons in the Godhead. He, all three, is the Most High God.

not sure i agree on this, if this was true then you have a problem. you can make an argument for echad being 3 in 1 or more than one, however you can not make the same argument for "He". "He" is one and only one. any more would make "he" a "they". and nowhere in scripture is the Most High refered to as "they".

Mark 12 32
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.

To be more precise, you have three persons in complete agreement with each other, always in communication. He (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is God.

three is a "they", one is "he"

Not at all.

if i asked myself questions and myself answered back to my other self i would not have control of my mind.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Note a Trinitarian view of God, as defined/described by orthodox Christianity is unsupported by the OT and unnecessary really. ( assumed as a relational construct or model, its fine, but its usefulness to some is questionable). Jesus is praying the Infinite, omnipresent Father, - this is all that essential to recognize.

Jesus affirmed the Shema, which historically and monotheistically ever afirms 'God' as 'one' (echad). 'Echad' does NOT affirm or denote 'threeness'.

I never actually said (at least, as far as I can remember) that "echad" means "threeness."

I did say, however, that "echad" indicates a "unity of multiple," or better described as a "plurality."

if Son is Most High, and Father is Most High, then you have the Most High praying to the Most High. what need would the Most High have to pray to anyone?

More accurately you have the Son (in the flesh) communicating with the Father (the Spirit).

not sure i agree on this, if this was true then you have a problem. you can make an argument for echad being 3 in 1 or more than one,

Except that seems to be something that both you and Freelight think I teach.

It's not.

I teach that "echad' means one of plurality, or 'unity,' ie 'multiple entities as one.'

I don't teach that it means three in one.

however you can not make the same argument for "He". "He" is one and only one. any more would make "he" a "they". and nowhere in scripture is the Most High refered to as "they".

Of course. There is ONE GOD. However, HE exists as three Persons, a "tri-une" being.

Referring to a triune being as one is only half the equation, so to speak. The other half of his essence is three.

As in:

1 = 3
1 + 1 + 1 = 1

I was attempting to create a cognitive dissonance to draw your attention to what I said. It worked.

God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is one God.

Moses, when writing Genesis, specifically used "Elohim" (a plural noun) with "bara" (a singular verb).

Meaning that Genesis 1:1 literally reads:

In the beginning [Gods] [He created] the heavens and the earth.

Hence the "He (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is."

Mark 12 32
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.

three is a "they", one is "he"

And yet, God is both one (God) and three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

if i asked myself questions and myself answered back to my other self i would not have control of my mind.

Yes, you would be considered mentally ill, because you are only one person.

God is three Persons, however.

 

[God's Truth]

umm no?? im not the one that is teaching Jesus prayed just to be seen praying.



these are not empty prayers, Jesus even thanks the Father for hearing Him pray.

You don't need to act like that; don't make your heart hard.

 

[jaybird]

More accurately you have the Son (in the flesh) communicating with the Father (the Spirit).

but according to you the Son is the Most High, and the Father is the Most High. so explain to me what the Most High does not know that He would need to pray for?

Except that seems to be something that both you and Freelight think I teach.

It's not.

I teach that "echad' means one of plurality, or 'unity,' ie 'multiple entities as one.'

I don't teach that it means three in one.



Of course. There is ONE GOD. However, HE exists as three Persons, a "tri-une" being.

Referring to a triune being as one is only half the equation, so to speak. The other half of his essence is three.

As in:

1 = 3
1 + 1 + 1 = 1

I was attempting to create a cognitive dissonance to draw your attention to what I said. It worked.

God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is one God.

Moses, when writing Genesis, specifically used "Elohim" (a plural noun) with "bara" (a singular verb).

Meaning that Genesis 1:1 literally reads:

In the beginning [Gods] [He created] the heavens and the earth.

Hence the "He (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is."



And yet, God is both one (God) and three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

so anytime the bible uses the word "he" it is referring to a group of people? again, not sure i agree on that one.

Yes, you would be considered mentally ill, because you are only one person.

God is three Persons, however.

thats three, not one. Jesus says the Most High is one.

one thing i always thought was strange, the trinity is such a huge debate, people were put to death over it, thats how serious it was, we have been debating it since Nicea, yet not once did anyone test Jesus on this? strange that the subject never came up.

 

[jaybird]

You don't need to act like that; don't make your heart hard.

act like what? did Jesus not teach not to stand on a corner and heap up empty words just so people could see you do it?
Jesus was always off praying and he was always going off alone to do it. i dont think it was just an act He was putting on for show.

 

[God's Truth]

act like what? did Jesus not teach not to stand on a corner and heap up empty words just so people could see you do it?
Jesus was always off praying and he was always going off alone to do it. i dont think it was just an act He was putting on for show.

I told you scripture without giving scripture references, but you did not recognize them; so then you called Jesus a hypocrite. Instead of admitting you did wrong and then learning and growing from there, you stunted your growth with denial.

John 12:30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

John 11:42
I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me."

 

[jaybird]

I told you scripture without giving scripture references, but you did not recognize them; so then you called Jesus a hypocrite. Instead of admitting you did wrong and then learning and growing from there, you stunted your growth with denial.

John 12:30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

John 11:42
I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me."

i didnt call Jesus a hypocrite. im questioning your thoughts, are you placing yourself equal to Jesus?
your teaching all Jesus prayers was an act. IMO Jesus taught against this. Jesus taught not to stand on a corner praying for no reason other than to let people see you praying. your teaching Jesus prayed just to let people see Him pray.

 

[God's Truth]

i didnt call Jesus a hypocrite. im questioning your thoughts, are you placing yourself equal to Jesus?

Your heart is not right.

your teaching all Jesus prayers was an act.

Are you calling those scriptures I gave where Jesus says the voice was for your sake as well as the prayer that it was an act?

Why do you keep putting down Jesus?

IMO Jesus taught against this. Jesus taught not to stand on a corner praying for no reason other than to let people see you praying. your teaching Jesus prayed just to let people see Him pray.

I gave you scripture of when Jesus prayed he said it was for their sake.

You are now mocking God.

Are you EvilEye?

 

[jaybird]

Your heart is not right.

personal insults are usually a sign of desperation

Are you calling those scriptures I gave where Jesus says the voice was for your sake as well as the prayer that it was an act?

i responded to that twice and you buried you head in the sand both times

Why do you keep putting down Jesus?

??????

I gave you scripture of when Jesus prayed he said it was for their sake.

seriously, have you not ever prayed for someone?

You are now mocking God.

what in the world are you talking about???

Are you EvilEye?

evil eye? how old are you?

 

[God's Truth]

personal insults are usually a sign of desperation


i responded to that twice and you buried you head in the sand both times


??????


seriously, have you not ever prayed for someone?



what in the world are you talking about???



evil eye? how old are you?

You started the personal insults and you even insulted the Word of God.

You are a dishonest person and there is no need debating with a dishonest person. You could be in all kinds of false doctrines, and say all kinds of hateful things to me, but a dishonest person I just won't debate.