Jesus is God

Jesus is God

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KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
Bright Raven said:
Early Trinitarian quotes;

Early Trinitarian Quotes
by Matt Slick

There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
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Justin Martyr, who did not know Jesus or his Apostles, also did not equate the Father, Son and H.S. Nothing he said there in your quote would lead us to believe that they were all equal, which "the Trinity" has to be, according to the creeds.

Where is the belief in a Trinity in the words of Ignatius? Explain to me how any of those phrases that you quote show that he believed that the Father and Son were both God. There is nothing.

Irenaeus called Jesus "the Son of God," not God. You know, if people will read your post instead of just assuming you have made good points, they will see that you are striving after the wind and have proven nothing. He gives much more homage to the Father, saying it is HIS will that was accomplished by Jesus, the Son.

When you get to Justin Martyr and Tertullian and the rest, you are coming upon the days when the Apostacy was setting in firmly, that Jesus and his Apostles warned about. I would not give a plug nickel about their beliefs. After the turning of the century, and the death of the last Apostle, John, there was nothing pure about what passed for "Christianity." I wouldn't pay any attention to anything beyond Ignatius. After that the church was infiltrated by wolves and became influenced by twisted doctrines.

"I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30)

Sadly, Origen had already fallen for the twisted doctrines of the wolves.

I don't think anyone has said that "the Trinity was never taught until 325 A.D.." What has been said is that it was not yet firmed up as a doctrine and recognized as a central doctrine of the faith before 325 A.D.. All of the waywardness of the "wolves" was made legitimate by Constantine and his bishops. If the politics of the time had swung with Arius, Tertullian, Origen, and other Trinitarians would have been labeled as heretics. Being Constantine's drinking buddy conferred big bonuses on the bishops who bothered to show up.

The quotes above do NOT show evidence of the Trinity being believed in the early church---not by a long shot. Just because Father, Son and H.S. are mentioned in the same breath doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that they are all God!
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
A pack of lies which deny that God made a man in His own image.

and had to do so in order to make the atonement legally.

LA
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Jesus is God and was always the One and only God. God is Spirit, and Jesus is Spirit.

You believe Jesus was just a man.

A man's spirit cannot live in people, but the Holy Spirit does.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus.

There is only one Spirit.
 
KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
Bright Raven said:
Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"

Answer: The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).



John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death. (From gotquestions.org)
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"I and the Father are one" simply means that they are UNIFIED in thought and word and deed, just as the disciples were to be "one" with God and Jesus (John 17:21-23). Do you say that the disciples are God also?

The Jews did NOT "know exactly what Jesus was claiming---deity"! No way. He did not say anything to make them believe that. He rebuffed them and corrected them, saying "I said I am God's Son." They were accusing him of making himself equal to God, but such was not the case. They also said that he got his power from the Devil! Just because they said it, does that make it true??? (John 8:48, 52)

John 8:58 has been explained many times. Jesus would not have used such a mish-mash of bad grammar. He would not have mixed present-tense with past-tense verbs in the same sentence, describing how long he had lived. A good rendering of that is: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." A helpful comment on this can be found here, as a discussion between three people: http://robertangle.com/ruminations/...ce-or-an-admission-of-being-the-almighty-god/
Various English translations that Recognize that Jesus did not say "I Am.".... http://robertangle.com/ruminations/...ations-that-recognize-jesus-did-not-say-i-am/

John 1:1 does not say "the Word was God." According to the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson (1891) and the Coptic Versions of 1,700 years ago, the correct rendering of the Greek expression in John 1:1 is:

"the word was a god"

http://depts.washington.edu/cartah/text_archive/coptic/coptjohn.shtml

http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2008/09/translating-word-was-god-1700-years-ago.html


So it doesn't say that "God" became flesh in the first chapter of John. It was the Word who became flesh "and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten SON from a Father." (v.14)

Thomas was just uttering an exclamation when he said, as we often say, "OH MY GOD" when we have just seen something astounding. That is not mentioned by ANY of the other Apostles, and tellingly not by John who continued to call Jesus THE SON OF GOD(John 20:31).

Titus 2:13 does not call Jesus "our God and Savior." The writer, Paul, speaks of TWO individuals there...."the great God AND of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus." God, the Father, mentioned first, then Christ Jesus. Pretty slick trying to mash God and Christ together in that sentence!

The same is said of 2Peter 1:1. God AND Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 1:8 is an improbable translation, as examination of the Psalm which is quoted would indicate, as well as the very next verse that says that the Son has a God. How can God have a God? You have never bothered to answer that question, Raven. The proper rendering is: "God is your throne forever and ever." (v.8) That means that God is the Source of the Son's power and authority. (See Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, pages 97-101.)

Jesus is "worshipped" as an individual deserving respect and high honor, as we honor even a court judge. "Worship" and "obeisance" are the same thing, and there are different levels of worship. We worship as God Almighty only the Father. No one else. Lesser "worship" is bestowed on high officials, and Jesus was "worshipped" as deserving of high honor, but not equal to the Father, God.

It is foolishness to say that God Himself had to die to redeem mankind. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say such a thing. Jesus' atonement sacrifice needed to cover only ADAM'S transgression. A perfect man for a perfect man. Because Adam sinned, Jesus would counter that sin by his perfect OBEDIENCE, and give up his perfect human life for the lives of all mankind. (See Romans 5:15-19.) What I'm posting is what the Bible REALLY says.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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KingdomRose said:
"I and the Father are one" simply means that they are UNIFIED in thought and word and deed, just as the disciples were to be "one" with God and Jesus (John 17:21-23). Do you say that the disciples are God also?

The Jews did NOT "know exactly what Jesus was claiming---deity"! No way. He did not say anything to make them believe that. He rebuffed them and corrected them, saying "I said I am God's Son." They were accusing him of making himself equal to God, but such was not the case. They also said that he got his power from the Devil! Just because they said it, does that make it true??? (John 8:48, 52)

John 8:58 has been explained many times. Jesus would not have used such a mish-mash of bad grammar. He would not have mixed present-tense with past-tense verbs in the same sentence, describing how long he had lived. A good rendering of that is: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." A helpful comment on this can be found here, as a discussion between three people: http://robertangle.com/ruminations/...ce-or-an-admission-of-being-the-almighty-god/
Various English translations that Recognize that Jesus did not say "I Am.".... http://robertangle.com/ruminations/...ations-that-recognize-jesus-did-not-say-i-am/

John 1:1 does not say "the Word was God." According to the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson (1891) and the Coptic Versions of 1,700 years ago, the correct rendering of the Greek expression in John 1:1 is:

"the word was a god"

http://depts.washington.edu/cartah/text_archive/coptic/coptjohn.shtml

http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2008/09/translating-word-was-god-1700-years-ago.html


So it doesn't say that "God" became flesh in the first chapter of John. It was the Word who became flesh "and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten SON from a Father." (v.14)

Thomas was just uttering an exclamation when he said, as we often say, "OH MY GOD" when we have just seen something astounding. That is not mentioned by ANY of the other Apostles, and tellingly not by John who continued to call Jesus THE SON OF GOD(John 20:31).

Titus 2:13 does not call Jesus "our God and Savior." The writer, Paul, speaks of TWO individuals there...."the great God AND of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus." God, the Father, mentioned first, then Christ Jesus. Pretty slick trying to mash God and Christ together in that sentence!

The same is said of 2Peter 1:1. God AND Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 1:8 is an improbable translation, as examination of the Psalm which is quoted would indicate, as well as the very next verse that says that the Son has a God. How can God have a God? You have never bothered to answer that question, Raven. The proper rendering is: "God is your throne forever and ever." (v.8) That means that God is the Source of the Son's power and authority. (See Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, pages 97-101.)

Jesus is "worshipped" as an individual deserving respect and high honor, as we honor even a court judge. "Worship" and "obeisance" are the same thing, and there are different levels of worship. We worship as God Almighty only the Father. No one else. Lesser "worship" is bestowed on high officials, and Jesus was "worshipped" as deserving of high honor, but not equal to the Father, God.

It is foolishness to say that God Himself had to die to redeem mankind. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say such a thing. Jesus' atonement sacrifice needed to cover only ADAM'S transgression. A perfect man for a perfect man. Because Adam sinned, Jesus would counter that sin by his perfect OBEDIENCE, and give up his perfect human life for the lives of all mankind. (See Romans 5:15-19.) What I'm posting is what the Bible REALLY says.
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Your answers are totally cultic responses. Jesus tells us;

John 8:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
 
KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
Bright Raven said:
Your answers are totally cultic responses. Jesus tells us;

John 8:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
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Cultic responses? Is that all you have to say concerning my post? You have no comment on the things I said? I will take that as you not being able to contradict what I have posted. You have nothing to say except "those are CULTIC RESPONSES!!" How lame.

BTW, my responses are from my own mind, not written somewhere for me to parrot. I have discerned what is true, and I don't need anyone to tell me what to say. I do know the truth, and I am free. I hope the same for you some day.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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KingdomRose said:
Cultic responses? Is that all you have to say concerning my post? You have no comment on the things I said? I will take that as you not being able to contradict what I have posted. You have nothing to say except "those are CULTIC RESPONSES!!" How lame.

BTW, my responses are from my own mind, not written somewhere for me to parrot. I have discerned what is true, and I don't need anyone to tell me what to say. I do know the truth, and I am free. I hope the same for you some day.
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Your answers are non-christian and do not deserve a response. They are typical responses given by the cults and non-believers. Get yourself some good commentaries, compare them with scripture and begin to learn the truth. Each of your examples can be soundly refuted. You have not discerned the truth which can set you free.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bright Raven said:
Sorry friend;

Hebrews 6:4-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
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The enlighten I received in church was not totally true my friend. Only half truth is distorted truth. I chose to overcome it by believing in his words, not the churches watered-down version.

Believe in the words of your Lord when he tells you that his God is the only God.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TOL mobile app
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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KingdomRose said:
"I and the Father are one" simply means that they are UNIFIED in thought and word and deed, just as the disciples were to be "one" with God and Jesus (John 17:21-23). Do you say that the disciples are God also?

The Jews did NOT "know exactly what Jesus was claiming---deity"! No way. He did not say anything to make them believe that. He rebuffed them and corrected them, saying "I said I am God's Son." They were accusing him of making himself equal to God, but such was not the case. They also said that he got his power from the Devil! Just because they said it, does that make it true??? (John 8:48, 52)

John 8:58 has been explained many times. Jesus would not have used such a mish-mash of bad grammar. He would not have mixed present-tense with past-tense verbs in the same sentence, describing how long he had lived. A good rendering of that is: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." A helpful comment on this can be found here, as a discussion between three people: http://robertangle.com/ruminations/...ce-or-an-admission-of-being-the-almighty-god/
Various English translations that Recognize that Jesus did not say "I Am.".... http://robertangle.com/ruminations/...ations-that-recognize-jesus-did-not-say-i-am/

John 1:1 does not say "the Word was God." According to the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson (1891) and the Coptic Versions of 1,700 years ago, the correct rendering of the Greek expression in John 1:1 is:

"the word was a god"

http://depts.washington.edu/cartah/text_archive/coptic/coptjohn.shtml

http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2008/09/translating-word-was-god-1700-years-ago.html


So it doesn't say that "God" became flesh in the first chapter of John. It was the Word who became flesh "and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten SON from a Father." (v.14)

Thomas was just uttering an exclamation when he said, as we often say, "OH MY GOD" when we have just seen something astounding. That is not mentioned by ANY of the other Apostles, and tellingly not by John who continued to call Jesus THE SON OF GOD(John 20:31).

Titus 2:13 does not call Jesus "our God and Savior." The writer, Paul, speaks of TWO individuals there...."the great God AND of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus." God, the Father, mentioned first, then Christ Jesus. Pretty slick trying to mash God and Christ together in that sentence!

The same is said of 2Peter 1:1. God AND Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 1:8 is an improbable translation, as examination of the Psalm which is quoted would indicate, as well as the very next verse that says that the Son has a God. How can God have a God? You have never bothered to answer that question, Raven. The proper rendering is: "God is your throne forever and ever." (v.8) That means that God is the Source of the Son's power and authority. (See Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, pages 97-101.)

Jesus is "worshipped" as an individual deserving respect and high honor, as we honor even a court judge. "Worship" and "obeisance" are the same thing, and there are different levels of worship. We worship as God Almighty only the Father. No one else. Lesser "worship" is bestowed on high officials, and Jesus was "worshipped" as deserving of high honor, but not equal to the Father, God.

It is foolishness to say that God Himself had to die to redeem mankind. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say such a thing. Jesus' atonement sacrifice needed to cover only ADAM'S transgression. A perfect man for a perfect man. Because Adam sinned, Jesus would counter that sin by his perfect OBEDIENCE, and give up his perfect human life for the lives of all mankind. (See Romans 5:15-19.) What I'm posting is what the Bible REALLY says.
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If Jesus isn't God, then how does his Spirit live in the saved?
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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keypurr said:
The enlighten I received in church was not totally true my friend. Only half truth is distorted truth. I chose to overcome it by believing in his words, not the churches watered-down version.

Believe in the words of your Lord when he tells you that his God is the only God.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TOL mobile app
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Jesus is eternal. How can you not believe that He is God?
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
keypurr said:
I left your darkness in my thirities. Far from my old age glorydaz. I do not find God in the main stream churches.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TOL mobile app
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MY darkness? I left mine in my twenties. :banana:

I don't find God in main stream churches either, so don't go fluffing your feathers too hard.


Trying to claim you have more light is pretty silly since you don't have the ONE TRUTH that saves.


And that is the TRUTH of our God and Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bright Raven said:
Jesus is eternal. How can you not believe that He is God?
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Jesus was a man BR, he was born to Mary. That is not eternal as you think eternal is.

Jesus has made it quite clear that his God sent him to us. He prayed to his God.
And he told is that there is only one true God yet you wish to follow the thoughts of men.

The logos that entered Jesus and spoke through him is a form of God, but not God. He is the true son of God. The express image of his creator.
 
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