Jesus is God !

[Ps82]

This feels like someone trying to have it both ways. It just isn't this complicated.

He whom we call "Jesus" is THE Creator God - period.
He became a human being at the incarnation and grew His human body inside Mary's womb.
He DID NOT have a human body before the incarnation - period.
He DID NOT have a glorified human body until He resurrected from having been well and truly DEAD for three days.
He retains both His humanity and His glorified human body to this day and forever more.

It isn't any more complicated than that and to deny that the Creator God became a human being so that He could died as a payment for the sins of the world is to deny the gospel itself. Keiw1 doesn't need to be bargained with, he doesn't need diplomacy and no common ground should be sought nor even desired. He isn't merely an unbeliever, he is an active enemy of the Cross and the Christ who died upon it and should be treated as such.

I agree, but don't you enjoy the nuances?
Check this out:
Jesus is God. Now understanding the way that there is The Spiritual God, The Father LORD God, and God the Son is what is fascinating.
Isaiah 43:11 says it succinctly : I (who is the ONE Spiritual God], even I, AM the LORD; beside me (who is presently known as the Spirit and the Father] there is no Savior.
IOW ... The ONE Spiritual God found a way to become both the Father and the Son. All three make up the what people call The God Head. All three are the ONE God.
Colossians 1:15 is the key. You have to correctly determine the noun and join it with its appositive. The verse is referring to Jesus but the appositive does not rename Jesus ... You see Jesus was not created for John the Baptist said he existed as the WORD with God and was God.
Therefore, the appositive had to refer to something that was created by God.

Verse15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Now watch:
[Jesus] who is the image, the first born of every creature, of [or belonging to] the invisible God.
The noun is image and its appositive is - the first born of every creature.

Conclusion: One key to understanding how the ONE invisible God became two visible representations of himself among men is how he used the image he created twice. The Father bore that created image in a super-natural form and Jesus bore the same image in a mortal fleshly manner.

Because the Father and the Son were both God Spiritually plus bore his created bodily appearance, these are two reasons are why Jesus could say, "The Father and I are one. When you have seen me you have seen the Father."

John 1:18 also tells us that the Son was/is God. 'God' is the noun and its appositive is 'the begotten Son.'

 

[Bladerunner]

It was intended to show a discrepancy.

whatever?

 

[Clete]

I agree, but don't you enjoy the nuances?
Check this out:
Jesus is God. Now understanding the way that there is The Spiritual God, The Father LORD God, and God the Son is what is fascinating.
Isaiah 43:11 says it succinctly : I (who is the ONE Spiritual God], even I, AM the LORD; beside me (who is presently known as the Spirit and the Father] there is no Savior.
IOW ... The ONE Spiritual God found a way to become both the Father and the Son. All three make up the what people call The God Head. All three are the ONE God.
Colossians 1:15 is the key. You have to correctly determine the noun and join it with its appositive. The verse is referring to Jesus but the appositive does not rename Jesus ... You see Jesus was not created for John the Baptist said he existed as the WORD with God and was God.
Therefore, the appositive had to refer to something that was created by God.

Verse15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Now watch:
[Jesus] who is the image, the first born of every creature, of [or belonging to] the invisible God.
The noun is image and its appositive is - the first born of every creature.

Conclusion: One key to understanding how the ONE invisible God became two visible representations of himself among men is how he used the image he created twice. The Father bore that created image in a super-natural form and Jesus bore the same image in a mortal fleshly manner.

Because the Father and the Son were both God Spiritually plus bore his created bodily appearance, these are two reasons are why Jesus could say, "The Father and I are one. When you have seen me you have seen the Father."

John 1:18 also tells us that the Son was/is God. 'God' is the noun and its appositive is 'the begotten Son.'

There is no biblical evidence that Jesus bore the "image" of God while on Earth. There was no need. He had a physical body.

There is also no biblical evidence that the visible manifestations of God prior to the incarnation were anyone other than He who would became Jesus - God the Son.

 

[7djengo7]

Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

Jesus is God.

Do you agree with the truth @JudgeRightly stated, that the Son, Jesus, is not the Father? Is Jesus the Father? Yes or No?

The ONE Spiritual God found a way to become the Father and the Son.

Are you saying that someone or something that was not the Father became the Father? That someone or something went from not being the Father to being the Father?

Are you saying that someone or something that was not the Son became the Son? That someone or something went from not being the Son to being the Son?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus is God.

Yes we agree.

That's not the point of contention.

The point of contention is this:

Here is my view . . . regarding the image of God and how Jesus was the Father God.

All three make up the what people call The God Head. All three are the ONE God.

Not in dispute.

One key to understanding how the ONE invisible God became two visible representations of himself among men is how he used the image he created twice.

Jesus did not create twice.

He created once, ~7500 years ago.

But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 10:6 - New King James Version

But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

www.biblegateway.com

The Father bore that created image in a super-natural form and Jesus bore the same image in a mortal fleshly manner.

The Father does not have an image.

Because the Father and the Son were both God Spiritually plus his created presence in bodily appearance, these are reasons Jesus could say, "The Father and I are one. When you have seen me you have seen the Father." Two Emmanuels!!!

There is ONE Immanuel.

He is God the Son, "God with Us," Jesus, the Christ.

Jesus is NOT the Father.

 

[Ps82]

You and I will disagree on your points above. I will end my discussion by adding a few last points here. You can find the scriptures by searching on you IPhone.

What part of these statements do you not accept?

There is no biblical evidence that Jesus bore the "image" of God while on Earth. There was no need. He had a physical body.

When you have SEEN ME you have SEEN The Father. IOW, people saw the bodily likeness of the image of the Father when they beheld the bodily likeness of Christ. Yes, Jesus had a mortal physical body where The Father's body was super-natural. 74 men saw God clearly and ate a meal in his presence. They clearly saw his body of heaven and he laid not a hand on them to harm them. Exodus 24:9-11

Now some may want to say this was Jesus ... incarnate ... and I agree if and when I keep this in mind: The Father and the Son are the ONE God. When Moses saw the LORD then he saw the living heavenly bodily form which God had chosen for himself in order to appear within his creation unto men. The Children of Israel were accustomed to hearing about a glorious, dangerous, presence belonging to the Father LORD God from days gone by. When God came looking like a normal fleshly son of man, it wasn't the look they expected when God was to come as their king. They totally missed the point of why the Messiah came as a servant to die and not as a glorious super-natural conquering king. Just because the level of the glory of the body of the Father was greater than that of Jesus's body does not mean that they did not greatly favor one another.

Jesus, the WORD of God who was God and was with God, tells us exactly where he was before he came as the Messiah. He spoke a prayed which included this statement:

John 17:4-5
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self - with the glory - which I had with [shared with] thee before the world was.

There is also no biblical evidence that the visible manifestations of God prior to the incarnation were anyone other than He who would became Jesus - God the Son.

You see, Clete, God told the truth when He said he had an image and that He wanted to share that image and likeness with Adam. Adam not only favored God as the first Adam... but Jesus favored the Father as the Second Adam.

Now, I'm not sure why you want to exclude The Father, whose name is forever to be The LORD/YHWH, from the OT appearances. many forefathers and prophets mentioned that they saw God and they were not thinking of a Son of flesh when he appeared. The Father did precede the Son and men saw his presence in dreams, visions, and out right face to face.

Here is a NT verse which will explain things about whether no one had seen God the Father. I use a KJV Bible so I will write the verse according to a proper diagram. I will not change any word but ...

• will move the adverbial phrase telling when next to the verb it modifies
• will surround the appositive with commas right after the noun it renames.
• I will identify the antecedents for the pronouns - he and him.
• Things will be so clear then.

John 1:18
No man at anytime hath seen God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father; he [John the Baptist] hath declared Him [God the Son].

You see, Clete, it was not that no one had ever seen the Father God appearing with his heavenly body ... but rather that no one had ever before seen God appearing as his own begotten Son with flesh!

Now, last points about the Three that are ONE.

• No one has ever seen God the Spirit for our eyes were not created / designed to see an invisible Spirit.
• BUT, people did see God appearing with his chosen image [heavenly body form]. They saw him in dreams, visions, and out right. They witnessed it with its dangerous glory and some saw it safely with a toned down glory.
• When people saw the Father they beheld the image in which Christ would appear ... yet as flesh. And Jesus told us this: When you have SEEN ME ... you have SEEN The Father. Jesus tried to help the religious leaders understand their ignorance when he explained this:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye [ignorant leaders] have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

IOW, they had never been given the privilege of having seen the Father's presence - no dreams, visions, or face to face encounters. If they had they would have recognized Jesus as God standing before them - EVEN IN FLESH!

Again Jesus explained:
John 8:19 Then they said unto him [Jesus], "Where is thy Father?" [The LORD of Israel] Jesus answered,"Ye neither know me, nor my Father; if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

Do you see the truth here? It was obvious that these people had never seen the Father for if they had they would have recognized Jesus. The very fact that they did not recognize the image and likeness of Jesus as God but in flesh meant they had never seen the Father in his glory.

Here is my short explanation of the trinity.

• God the infinite invisible Spirit cannot be seen by men. Yet He worked [Genesis 1] establishing and bringing forth things of creation. The WORD was there as the Spirit spoke things into existence.
• The LORD God, the Father, began his Work on the 7th day [Gen.2]. A time when God came into his own creation as a personage of the God Head in a hands on relationship in order to manifest things which had been established but not yet brought forth into a visible realm. The WORD was there speaking with the Father ... for it says that Adam and Woman heard the WORD walking in the Garden and they tried to hide from his presence. IOW, they could see his finite presence as well as hear his foot steps. No wonder they thought they could hide from him.
• The Christ, who John the Baptist said was the WORD, who was God and was with God from the beginning, came into the world to do his work. Jesus explained to people he only says and does what the Father wishes. John 8:28-29

You see, Clete, The WORD of God was always there ... when the Spirit worked, when the Father worked, when the Christ worked. The three are the ONE God.

People in Jesus's day became especially angry when he did miracles on the 7th Day/Sabbath. Once he healed a lame man on the 7th day and some of the Jews wanted to kill him. He took time to explain why it was okay for him to work on the Sabbath. It was a day dedicated unto the LORD God and he had been with the Father as he manifested mankind ... etc. .

He explained. John 5:16-17 And therefor did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day [7th day]. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto [as the Father of glory in Adam's day], and I work [now as the Christ who was with the Father on the 7th day of creation].

Jesus was as much God as was the Spirit and as much God as was the hands on Father who worked generations ago ... the three who are the ONE God.

 

[Clete]

You and I will disagree on your points above. I will end my discussion by adding a few last points here. You can find the scriptures by searching on you IPhone.

What part of these statements do you not accept?


When you have SEEN ME you have SEEN The Father. IOW, people saw the bodily likeness of the image of the Father when they beheld the bodily likeness of Christ.

NO!!!

Jesus wasn't talking about His body! He was talking about HIMSELF!!! Jesus and the Father are ONE!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.”

Yes, Jesus had a mortal physical body where The Father's body was super-natural. 74 men saw God clearly and ate a meal in his presence. They clearly saw his body of heaven and he laid not a hand on them to harm them. Exodus 24:9-11

Exodus 24:9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

This was a Christophany!

A teaching as least as old as Justine Martyr!

Now some may want to say this was Jesus ... incarnate ... and I agree if and when I keep this in mind: The Father and the Son are the ONE God.

Thank you for crushing your own teaching into dust!

That is literally what you've done with this single sentence. I have no idea why you're so obsessed with this idea that God the Father has a body but it is obvious heresy that no one but you believes.

When Moses saw the LORD then he saw the living heavenly bodily form which God had chosen for himself in order to appear within his creation unto men.

You've given no evidence in support of this claim. All the evidence you have provided is to the contrary, which you just stated one sentence ago.

The Children of Israel were accustomed to hearing about a glorious, dangerous, presence belonging to the Father LORD God from days gone by. When God came looking like a normal fleshly son of man, it wasn't the look they expected when God was to come as their king. They totally missed the point of why the Messiah came as a servant to die and not as a glorious super-natural conquering king. Just because the level of the glory of the body of the Father was greater than that of Jesus's body does not mean that they did not greatly favor one another.

So what if they did? Jesus was a direct biological descendant of Mary. There isn't any doubt at all that He would have had a familial likeness to her and so by your logic, Mary must have looked similar to God the Father!

RIDICULOUS!!!

It's simply meaningless, nonsense.

Jesus, the WORD of God who was God and was with God, tells us exactly where he was before he came as the Messiah. He spoke a prayed which included this statement:

John 17:4-5
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self - with the glory - which I had with [shared with] thee before the world was.

You see, Clete, God told the truth when He said he had an image and that He wanted to share that image and likeness with Adam. Adam not only favored God as the first Adam... but Jesus favored the Father as the Second Adam.

Nonsense.

You've already conceded the truth of Jesus' own plain statement, Jesus and the Father are One. This alone is enough to disprove your thesis. A thesis which seems to have no point to it, by the way. Even if it were true (which it is not), so what?

Now, I'm not sure why you want to exclude The Father, whose name is forever to be The LORD/YHWH, from the OT appearances.

ME? Why bring me into this? No one asked me what should and should not be taught in scripture. I didn't write the bible, nor was I consulted about it's content. You are the one here introducing extrabiblical concepts, conjecture and speculations, NOT ME!!!!

The question isn't why I should want to exclude the Father from OT appearances, the question is why you should want to include Him when God the Son Himself explicitly stated that "No one has seen God [The Father] at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

I mean, how much more explicit do you want it to be?

many forefathers and prophets mentioned that they saw God and they were not thinking of a Son of flesh when he appeared. The Father did precede the Son and men saw his presence in dreams, visions, and out right face to face.

This isn't just heresy, it's blasphemy!

The Father DID NOT precede the Son!

The Father and the Son are ONE!!!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Here is a NT verse which will explain things about whether no one had seen God the Father. I use a KJV Bible so I will write the verse according to a proper diagram. I will not change any word but ...

• will move the adverbial phrase telling when next to the verb it modifies
• will surround the appositive with commas right after the noun it renames.
• I will identify the antecedents for the pronouns - he and him.
• Things will be so clear then.

John 1:18
No man at anytime hath seen God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father; he [John the Baptist] hath declared Him [God the Son].

You do not have the skills to rewrite the bible. There isn't any chance at all that you would know a Greek adverb from a hoot owl's tail feather.

There are translations of the bible that use the same source material as the KJV but translate it into more modern English. They are just as easily available online as any KJV version and you don't have to waste your time "rewording" it.

What you've done here is to take yet another page out of the cultist Yahweh Ben Yahweh's handbook of biblical interpretation. "If there is a passage that doesn't fit your doctrine, don't worry, just reword it so that it agrees with you. People will buy it if, before presenting your rewrite of God's word, you use words that sound intellectual, like "adverbial phrase" and "antecedent""

You see, Clete, it was not that no one had ever seen the Father God appearing with his heavenly body ... but rather that no one had ever before seen God appearing as his own begotten Son with flesh!

You are a cultist!

Now, last points about the Three that are ONE.

• No one has ever seen God the Spirit for our eyes were not created / designed to see an invisible Spirit.
• BUT, people did see God appearing with his chosen image [heavenly body form]. They saw him in dreams, visions, and out right. They witnessed it with its dangerous glory and some saw it safely with a toned down glory.
• When people saw the Father they beheld the image in which Christ would appear ... yet as flesh. And Jesus told us this: When you have SEEN ME ... you have SEEN The Father. Jesus tried to help the religious leaders understand their ignorance when he explained this:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye [ignorant leaders] have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

IOW, they had never been given the privilege of having seen the Father's presence - no dreams, visions, or face to face encounters. If they had they would have recognized Jesus as God standing before them - EVEN IN FLESH!

LOL!!!!

This is the stupidest thing I've seen posted on TOL since the flat earth thread!

What is this wacky obsession with forcing a physical body onto God the Father? What could possibly be the pay off for having to jump through so many literally idiotic hoops?

Again Jesus explained:
John 8:19 Then they said unto him [Jesus], "Where is thy Father?" [The LORD of Israel] Jesus answered,"Ye neither know me, nor my Father; if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

Do you see the truth here? It was obvious that these people had never seen the Father for if they had they would have recognized Jesus. The very fact that they did not recognize the image and likeness of Jesus as God but in flesh meant they had never seen the Father in his glory.

Assinine!

This is just nothing at all but abject stupidity! Jesus was not talking about His physical appearance!

Here is my short explanation of the trinity.

• God the infinite invisible Spirit cannot be seen by men. Yet He worked [Genesis 1] establishing and bringing forth things of creation. The WORD was there as the Spirit spoke things into existence.

The Word wasn't merely there, He was God Himself and created all that exists....

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

• The LORD God, the Father, began his Work on the 7th day [Gen.2].

This statement would have gotten you stoned prior to Paul's ministry!

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.​

​

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.​

​

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from ALL His works”;​

• A time when God came into his own creation as a personage of the God Head in a hands on relationship in order to manifest things which had been established but not yet brought forth into a visible realm. The WORD was there speaking with the Father ... for it says that Adam and Woman heard the WORD walking in the Garden and they tried to hide from his presence. IOW, they could see his finite presence as well as hear his foot steps. No wonder they thought they could hide from him.

Jesus is the Word, Ps82!

Once again, you directly undermine your own doctrine!

• The Christ, who John the Baptist said was the WORD, who was God and was with God from the beginning, came into the world to do his work. Jesus explained to people he only says and does what the Father wishes. John 8:28-29

John the Baptists did NOT say that the Word was with God and the Word was God! That was the Apostle John! The John who was charged by Christ to take care of His mother. The John who wrote five books of the New Testament.

You see, Clete, The WORD of God was always there ... when the Spirit worked, when the Father worked, when the Christ worked. The three are the ONE God.

Thank you for, once again, smashing your own thesis into powder!

People in Jesus's day became especially angry when he did miracles on the 7th Day/Sabbath. Once he healed a lame man on the 7th day and some of the Jews wanted to kill him. He took time to explain why it was okay for him to work on the Sabbath. It was a day dedicated unto the LORD God and he had been with the Father as he manifested mankind ... etc. .

More cult like "interpretation".

You should look up the terms "unfalsifiable" and "confirmation bias".

He explained. John 5:16-17 And therefor did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day [7th day]. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto [as the Father of glory in Adam's day], and I work [now as the Christ who was with the Father on the 7th day of creation].

One day you will learn that adding your doctrine to the bible doesn't count as presenting biblical evidence for that doctrine.

Jesus was as much God as was the Spirit and as much God as was the hands on Father who worked generations ago ... the three who are the ONE God.

And that One God rested on the seventh day, Ps82. He rested! He didn't start a new project on the seventh day, He CEASED from His work!

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:​

​

“So I swore in My wrath,​

‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”​

​

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:​

​

“Today, if you will hear His voice,​

Do not harden your hearts.”​

​

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.​

 

[Right Divider]

You are a cultist!

Been sensing this for a while now... just wondering which one.

 

[Clete]

Been sensing this for a while now... just wondering which one.

I would be curious to know what church, if any, she attends or what group she identifies with.

I'd be surprised if she'd tell us.

The only sect I know of that believes that God (The Father) has a physical form is the Mormons but she states clearly that God the Father is an invisible Spirit and so that doesn't quite fit with the flesh and bones body of God belief that the Mormons teach.

 

[Ps82]

There is no biblical evidence that Jesus bore the "image" of God while on Earth. There was no need. He had a physical body.

There is also no biblical evidence that the visible manifestations of God prior to the incarnation were anyone other than He who would became Jesus - God the Son.

There is written truth showing the ONE God chose to have one image. That is made clear in Genesis 1 and 2. God the Spirit was working in Gen. 1 but he mentions his already having an image to share. He states he will share its likeness with Adam. In Genesis 2 The Spirit rests because the Creator decides to work in a more hands-on creative process. That was when YHWY/LORD began to work in a more hands on sort of way even seen with some sort of corporeal body. He formed the First Adam. How was Adam different from the likeness of the LORD - He wasn't God and his image probably had a lesser glory formed from the elements of the world called ground.

Now in both chapters The WORD of God was working and John 1:1-3 tells us the manner in which that WORD came to earth. Jesus was the WORD, who was God and was with God from the beginning, but he appeared for the first time in flesh.
Yes, the WORD/the promised son of God on earth was there from the beginning as God ... but he came as the Second Adam. John 1:18 tells us that no one had ever seen God, the Son, until the days when John the Baptist identified him to people.

There are still three identifiable ways the ONE Spiritual God chose to work. Most people call these ways - the trinity, and name them as: The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.



Questions for you.

• What to you is understood by these two truths?

God comes [OT times] into the world and appears unto mankind in dreams, visions, and face to face while working.
God comes into the world [NT times] and appears unto mankind face to face doing his works.

• Jesus said: John 5:17 My Father worketh hitherto [OT] and I work [NT]. If Jesus identifies the Father existed and worked before him, why do you deny the Father?

Yes ... one God works but he chose to have personal relationships with mankind.

• What does it mean that God came as his own begotten Son/Savior, which has been identified the Son of God and as a son of Man?

Isaiah 43:11 mentions all three members of the God Head:
God said, I [the one God], even, I AM the LORD [who appeared to men on earth]; beside ME [who can be identified as the Spirit and the LORD of Abraham, Moses, etc] there is no Savior.
Did you see the God Head according to his relationship with mankind? Jesus was listed just not by his human name.

 

[7djengo7]

There are still three identifiable ways the ONE Spiritual God chose to work. Most people call these ways - the trinity, and name them as: The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Three "ways", eh? You mean, like modes? As in modalism? That kind of ringS a bell(ianism).

So, when you say "the Father", you're not referring to a Person, but instead, to a way of working?

And, when you say "the Son", you're not referring to a Person, but instead, to a way of working?

And, when you say "the Holy Spirit", you're not referring to a Person, but instead, to a way of working?

God the Spirit was working in Gen. 1

Was God the Father not working then, too?

Was God the Son not working then, too?

And, if by "God the Spirit", you don't mean a Person, but instead, a way of working, that seems kind of bizarre: "[One of three ways of working] was working in Gen. 1".

What does it mean that God came as his own begotten Son/Savior

By your word, "God", are you referring to the Father? The Father is not His Son. The Father did not come as His Son. The Father did not come in the flesh. His Son came in the flesh.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

When people say the words "Jesus Christ came in the flesh," but by their phrase "Jesus Christ" are not referring to the Son, but to the Father instead, they are not confessing that Jesus came in the flesh. Instead, they are asserting an heretical falsehood: viz., that the Father came in the flesh. To transfer to any person who is not the Son names belonging solely to the Son is to deny the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

If someone uses a name belonging solely to the Son (i.e., "Jesus Christ") to refer to the Father, instead of to refer to the Son, that heretic is thereby denying the Son. Snubbing and ignoring the Son is kind of not a really good thing to do... and misappropriating His very names and applying them to some person who is not Him seems a further insult to Him.

Jesus said: John 5:17 My Father worketh hitherto [OT] and I work [NT]. If Jesus identifies the Father existed and worked before him, why do you deny the Father?

Where do you get that the Father worked before the Son worked? "Worketh" is present tense, not past tense. Jesus does not say "My Father worked hitherto". John 5:17 says nothing about the Father working alone in Old-Testament days, as though without the Son simultaneously working. And, it says nothing about the Son working alone in New-Testament times, as though without the Father simultaneously working.

 

[Clete]

There is written truth showing the ONE God chose to have one image. That is made clear in Genesis 1 and 2.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

God the Spirit was working in Gen. 1 but he mentions his already having an image to share. He states he will share its likeness with Adam. In Genesis 2 The Spirit rests because the Creator decides to work in a more hands-on creative process.

There was no creation after day six.

That was when YHWY/LORD began to work in a more hands on sort of way even seen with some sort of corporeal body.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You need to familiarize yourself with the term "Eisegesis".

He formed the First Adam. How was Adam different from the likeness of the LORD - He wasn't God and his image probably had a lesser glory formed from the elements of the world called ground.

There is literally - I mean - LITERALLY - nothing that you couldn't choose to believe and "defend" biblically with this sort of thinking. Ancient alien theorists could make their argument from scripture if what you are doing here is valid.

Now in both chapters The WORD of God was working and John 1:1-3 tells us the manner in which that WORD came to earth. Jesus was the WORD, who was God and was with God from the beginning, but he appeared for the first time in flesh.

So you think that Jesus and Adam were some sort of twins? Is that what you're trying to imply here?

Yes, the WORD/the promised son of God on earth was there from the beginning as God ... but he came as the Second Adam. John 1:18 tells us that no one had ever seen God, the Son, until the days when John the Baptist identified him to people.

See what I mean? You can turn any verse into its absolute opposite if that's what you need to do to bolster a desired doctrine.

There are still three identifiable ways the ONE Spiritual God chose to work. Most people call these ways - the trinity, and name them as: The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What?

Questions for you.

• What to you is understood by these two truths?

God comes [OT times] into the world and appears unto mankind in dreams, visions, and face to face while working.
God comes into the world [NT times] and appears unto mankind face to face doing his works.

I can't even tell what it is you're talking about! It's literal gibberish!

Did John and Paul not have dreams and visions during the New Testament era?
Did Peter not speak of dreams and visions during his sermon after Pentecost?

• Jesus said: John 5:17 My Father worketh hitherto [OT] and I work [NT]. If Jesus identifies the Father existed and worked before him, why do you deny the Father?

I've denied nothing concerning God doing things. What God did not do is CREATE stuff after day six. A point that I have PROVEN with scripture and that has gone without response from you because you don't really give a damn what the bible actually teaches. You're interested in being mystical and in pretending like you've figured out some hidden wisdom.

Yes ... one God works but he chose to have personal relationships with mankind.

• What does it mean that God came as his own begotten Son/Savior, which has been identified the Son of God and as a son of Man?

What do you mean by, "What does it mean"?

First of all God didn't "come as His own begotten Son". The Son is not the Father. The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. The Two are One but they are also Two and there is a Third that we call the Holy Spirit. How this works, we are not told, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to make things up to suit your doctrine.

Isaiah 43:11 mentions all three members of the God Head:
God said, I [the one God], even, I AM the LORD [who appeared to men on earth]; beside ME [who can be identified as the Spirit and the LORD of Abraham, Moses, etc] there is no Savior.
Did you see the God Head according to his relationship with mankind? Jesus was listed just not by his human name.

Sure, of course! Just add parenthetical phrases into any sentence in the bible you want and there's tons of people out there who will think you've made a biblical argument!

I'm starting to actually wonder whether Yahweh Ben Yahweh actually wrote a handbook that you are in fact following!

I mean, I agree that Jesus is the savior and that we can see Him on practically every page of the Old Testament but you've gone well beyond that here. The phrase "beside me" does NOT mean what you pretend it means here. It cannot be a reference to the Holy Spirit because then that would be saying that the Holy Spirit isn't God! The phrase "beside me" means, "other than me", as is made clear in the numerous other times that Isaiah uses the phrase to make basically the same point....

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,​

​

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other;​

​

Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.​

 

[Ps82]

Saying it doesn't make it so.


There was no creation after day six.


Saying it doesn't make it so.

Same for you.

You need to familiarize yourself with the term "Eisegesis".

I think you can also call Eisegesis a discussion among Bible students of what we find in scripture. Sure I have opinions ... so do you. I don't necessarily have an agenda except that I would like to show people what I see in scripture which means something to me.

There is literally - I mean - LITERALLY - nothing that you couldn't choose to believe and "defend" biblically with this sort of thinking. Ancient alien theorists could make their argument from scripture if what you are doing here is valid.

So you think that Jesus and Adam were some sort of twins? Is that what you're trying to imply here?

Actually, yes!
Except only in appearance for Jesus was God, who came bearing the original image God chose for himself, and which God agreed to share with the first Adam.
Who was Adam? He was a spiritual being created male/female. He was given a measure of life from God and was ultimately blessed to receive an image which was after the likeness of God's own image. He was not God
Who was Jesus? He was the WORD, who was God and was with God. Since he was God he was an invisible Spirit. John gave him the name when he came as the Messiah - the WORD of God. He was blessed as the promised Messiah to share the one and only image God created for his personal use. It was the same image God shared with Adam

What?

I guess you don't accept the trinity explanation ... The Spirit, the Father, and the Son

I can't even tell what it is you're talking about! It's literal gibberish!

Did John and Paul not have dreams and visions during the New Testament era?
Did Peter not speak of dreams and visions during his sermon after Pentecost?

I had asked you:

• What to you is understood by these two truths?

God comes [OT times] into the world and appears unto mankind in dreams, visions, and face to face while working.
God comes into the world [NT times] and appears unto mankind face to face doing his works.

You didn't explain what these meant to you ... only that you thought I spoke jibberish. Sigh
BTW, of course, John, Peter and Paul had dreams and visions ... but they came after the Lord had risen from the dead and gone to heaven. Before that they saw God face to face as his own begotten Son. How many times does Christ need to repeat these truths??? "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The Father and I are one."

Well, people saw God clearly in the OT face to face, in dreams and visions. Exodus 24 tells you that 74 people saw his body of heaven clearly and had food and drink in his presence and was not harmed. Read it for your self

First of all God didn't "come as His own begotten Son". The Son is not the Father. The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. The Two are One but they are also Two and there is a Third that we call the Holy Spirit. How this works, we are not told, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to make things up to suit your doctrine.

Ah ha ... now I understand you. You do not believe that the Messiah was God incarnate ... the Emanuel. Well, that could lead to a lot of confusion.

I mean, I agree that Jesus is the savior and that we can see Him on practically every page of the Old Testament but you've gone well beyond that here. The phrase "beside me" does NOT mean what you pretend it means here. It cannot be a reference to the Holy Spirit because then that would be saying that the Holy Spirit isn't God! The phrase "beside me" means, "other than me", as is made clear in the numerous other times that Isaiah uses the phrase to make basically the same point....

Yep, There is no God - Other than ME. There is ONE God. He is the Father, Son and Spirit.
Your conclusions of what I write and insert is just confusion. When I put things inside brackets or parenthesis I am only adding truth found elsewhere in scripture which adds insight to the matter. It should be so clear. The ONE and only God is an invisible Spirit. HE alone has manifested himself with a presence within his creation. In our case, he manifested himself unto the eyes of mankind. Even though he made a way for him to appear ... it was still God... an Emmanuel - God among us. Thus we have the

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,​

​

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other;​

​

Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.​

Guess you missed the truth: A just God and Savior. IOW, He was the Savior... appearing in flesh.

It was the first time anyone had ever seen God as his own begotten Son ... They had seen God as the Father with his body of heaven. Now they were seeing God the Son in mortal flesh for the first time. John 1:18
The noun is God ... the appositive [word or phrase renaming or describing the noun] is the Son. IOW, God was the Son!

 

[Ps82]

Three "ways", eh? You mean, like modes? As in modalism? That kind of ringS a bell(ianism).

So, when you say "the Father", you're not referring to a Person, but instead, to a way of working?

And, when you say "the Son", you're not referring to a Person, but instead, to a way of working?

And, when you say "the Holy Spirit", you're not referring to a Person, but instead, to a way of working?

This is what Jesus, John, said and what the religious leaders understood to be the fact:
John 5: 16-18
JOHN WROTE: And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
JESUS SAID: But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto,and I work."
THE JEWS UNDERSTOOD! Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

CONCLUSION: Jesus felt he had a right to work on the sabbath. Why?
Ans: He and the Father both did the works of God on earth. God worked as the Father in Gen.2 and God was working as Him, the Messiah. Father and Son Emanuel [God among us.] working in their day.
The Jews understood God was come as the Messiah and would be known as The Son of God!!!

I believe there is ONE God... and that HE works among men as Emanuel.
I like to use the term personage to refer to the Father and the Son because they are not typical people ... but still they are spiritually sentient persons of the God Head appearing among men with the image God created for his personal use before the world was.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I do not have the spirit of anti-christ. I believe Jesus was God appearing in flesh who died for the sins of all who would honor and follow him as their Lord.

If someone uses a name belonging solely to the Son (i.e., "Jesus Christ") to refer to the Father, instead of to refer to the Son, that heretic is thereby denying the Son. Snubbing and ignoring the Son is kind of not a really good thing to do... and misappropriating His very names and applying them to some person who is not Him seems a further insult to Him.

I believe there is ONE God are you trying to make him into two or three other persons?
God made The Way for him to come into our flesh and die as a son of man upon a cross... He accomplished this without stopping being God. His coming as the identifiable person, Jesus, was evidence of that way.

Where do you get that the Father worked before the Son worked? "Worketh" is present tense, not past tense. Jesus does not say "My Father worked hitherto". John 5:17 says nothing about the Father working alone in Old-Testament days, as though without the Son simultaneously working. And, it says nothing about the Son working alone in New-Testament times, as though without the Father simultaneously working.

King James expresses it this way: John 5:17 My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

You see, people having finite observable thinking ability got to know them as two individuals. ... but the religious leaders understood something deeper. With a super-natural God all things are possible... A heavenly God can come as his own begotten Son.
John 5:18 but [Jesus] said also that God was his Father, making him self equal with God.

What Bible version are you reading?
Of course, the Father and the Son never worked alone. The Word [future messiah John 1:1-3] worked with the Father from the beginning. Jesus tells us in his day that he only did and said what the Father wanted. There is ONE God. He is they. They are he!

God was the begotten Son and no one had ever seen him until Jesus arrived and John the B told us who he was:

 

[7djengo7]

Ah ha ... now I understand you. You do not believe that the Messiah was God incarnate

By your phrase, "God incarnate", to which Person are you referring?
1. God the Son
or
2. God the Father

Which one of those two Persons is the Person you are saying @Clete does not believe the Messiah was?

No Christian believes the Messiah was/is God the Father. Every Christian believes the Messiah was/is not God the Father. Every Christian believes the Messiah was/is God the Son.

A little ways back, I asked you:

Is Jesus the Father? Yes or No?

So far, you've not answered that question. Why not?

People who use the three phrases "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit" interchangeably, to refer to only one person, instead of to three Persons, are not Trinitarians, and are thus not Christians.

 

[JudgeRightly]

A little ways back, I asked you:


So far, you've not answered that question. Why not?

The person seems to intentionally completely miss the point of contention that I brought up in post #4451.

 

[7djengo7]

I believe there is ONE God are you trying to make him into two or three other persons?

By your pronoun "him" to which (if any) of these three Persons are you referring?

• The Father
• The Son
• The Holy Ghost

Which one (if any) of the following are you saying?

1. "are you trying to make [the Father] into two or three other persons?"
2. "are you trying to make [the Son] into two or three other persons?"
3. "are you trying to make [the Holy Ghost] into two or three other persons?"

I'm not making any Person into multiple Persons. I'm recognizing the three Persons Who are the Triune God. You seem to like saying the names of those three Persons, but seem to not like recognizing the fact that those three Persons are three Persons.

I believe there is ONE God...

Do you mean you believe only one person is God?

I believe Jesus was God appearing in flesh who died for the sins of all who would honor and follow him as their Lord.

By your word "God" are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?

 

[7djengo7]

The person seems to intentionally completely miss the point of contention that I brought up in post #4451.

Yes. The evasion is definitely apparent!

And, if you please, they prefer to be called "personage" rather than "person".

I like to use the term personage

 

[Ps82]

Yes. The evasion is definitely apparent!

And, if you please, they prefer to be called "personage" rather than "person".

Teaming up huh? Funny

Let's see what point you two are dying to hear: #4451

I did not see a question there. Just a statement: "Jesus is the Son, not the Father."

What part of there being ONE God that you, Judge Rightly, Keiw1 and Clete don't get?
All I have done is offered my findings on how the ONE God became known to mankind as three identifiable persons of the God Head. All seeming unique to us yet able to remain the ONE God.
The Father LORD is known by the times he worked and appeared unto men.
The Son Lord Jesus is known by the times he worked and appeared unto men.
It is the time period and the works that set them apart to us.

Yet, the Son explained - he only did and said what the Father wanted - he and the Father were ONE - When you have seen me you have seen the Father.

Now, discussing the Father and the Son might help us understand two persons / personages of the God Head ... but what about the Spirit?
Well, I don't know if all of you are ready to grasp that miracle, but I'll open the conversation.
There is ONE God. God is an omni-everything invisible creative Spirit. He manifested himself among men as the Father and the Son and performed certain works as the time came to fulfill them. Yet, God was not/is not done! He has another measure of life and wisdom to give to humanity. Christians call it the indwelling of the Spirit of God for the followers of Christ.

You see, God can share of his Spiritual essence in measures even without loosing any of his wholeness. He simply allocates and commands things to take place. He is never chopped up in compartments or looses anything of his being. Sometime we are narrow minded and think things are done like that.

For instance, God is LIFE. He only allocated a measure of life unto humanity/Adam.
But through Christ he has allocated or given the gift of the Holy Spirit in us to hold believers unto salvation to give us immortality in the kingdom of our Lord, and to teach, to equip us and so forth in this life.

Right now I consider the third person of the identifiable God head to be the additional measure of God's Spirit which Christ has delivered to us. God in us ---- but by measure. I also might consider that the Holy Spirit in us means that believers have direct access to God the Spirit.. BUT I know we are not equal to God and never will be and therefore will never have direct access to everything of God the Spirit.

 

[7djengo7]

Let's see what point you two are dying to hear: #4451

I did not see a question there. Just a statement: "Jesus is the Son, not the Father."

You didn't see a question mark there, sure. But, you saw a statement being made: viz., that Jesus is not the Father. And, you chose to ignore it, rather than to respond either by registering agreement with it, affirming it, or by registering rejection of it, denying it. You chose to say neither "That's true! Jesus is not the Father!" or "That's false! Jesus is the Father!" Besides, you'll be lying through your teeth if you're going to tell us that you did not see the question that I -- on account of having noticed your peculiar silence to @JudgeRightly's statement -- asked you shortly thereafter:

Do you agree with the truth @JudgeRightly stated, that the Son, Jesus, is not the Father? Is Jesus the Father? Yes or No?

You: <NO ANSWER>

I even, just today, just a little while ago, reminded you of that very question:

Is Jesus the Father? Yes or No?

So far, you've not answered that question. Why not?

You: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

Is Jesus the Father? Yes or No?