He is right. Jesus is the image of God--the bible teaches that fact. Every christian as well teaches that fact then. An image is NEVER the real thing.
Jesus is God !
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God is invisible.
Jesus is the manifestation of God in a visible form, an image, a body.
Speaking of Jesus Christ, Paul says:
"He is the image of the invisible God." (Colossians 1:15)
That means he's God.
Speaking of Jesus Christ, Paul says:
"For in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9)
He is "God with us," Immanuel.
If he was just a reflection (as though a mirror image, rather than the image itself), He could not have paid for all of mankind's sins. In other words, God cannot create something that would have enough value to cover the price for those sins. By necessity, that means Jesus was not a created being.
Yes. Personage. I listed the Three in one. So what is your question? You don't like the noun personage? What would you use to describe the three times the ONE God is mentioned as working among men. 1.) The Spirit who moved upon the waters and created in Genesis 1
2.) The Father who walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Woman and later was called the Father God YHWH.
3. The Messiah who was God in flesh. Isaiah 53:11 John 1:18.
Love to discuss further if you will tell me what is wrong with identifying the three in ONE as personages.
Well, I like to use the word personages ... because I think of a person as someone like you and me. We are certainly no match to God as the Spirit, The Father, and the begotten Son/risen Lord. However, I think of them as personages because HE made mankind after His image and likeness; therefore, in some ways they did look like persons. In fact, the reason so many did not recognize Jesus as God the Savior is because he looked so natural as a person.
The Father, who had a male presence, still looked so super-natural that men often fell to their knees when they saw him. IOW, they always knew they were talking to a male presence that was not human. Moses had to be shielded from the danger of his glorious presence ... or people had to stand at a distance ... or only saw him in a dream. Not so with Jesus. This is why Jesus asked to receive back the glory he once shared with the Father before the world was.
I have no argument with your liking the noun person ... but for me personally personage seems to point to another level of existence.
There are at least four aspects of how Jesus is/was all God. Perhaps there are more.
1.) He bore the ONE image God had created for his personal use as the one God. First mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27.
2.) He is the WORD of God. Mentioned in John 1:1-3. And mentioned in Genesis 3:8-10 as the ONE who was heard walking in the Garden and who spoke audibly to Adam and Woman. They hid from his presence. He also spoke in Genesis 1 during "stage one" of the creative process.
3.) We are told in John that the Spirit was given to him without measure. IOW, God gives life and other things of the Spirit to created creatures in part. Mankind has only received the measure that promotes physical mortal life. That breath of life is mentioned in Genesis 2:6-7. In fact, the ground received a measure/aka - a mist of water of life and then the spirit of male female was imparted into the body as a breath from God. So really I believe there were two lives imparted to a completed human. - the physical in the body which had the male/female spirit associated to it. Only then was mankind a completed soul. And yet an additional measure can be given to us by Christ. It is mentioned in John 4:13-14.
4.) Of course, Jesus demonstrated miracles that only God could do and told the religious leaders that if they could not believe on the miracles he did at least believe the words he said. John 4:25-26, John 5: 18-29. Of course, many people chose not to believe anything about him or to simply reject him.
You are not a Christian!
The bible teaches that Jesus IS God! (John 1 and elsewhere).
You are not saved.
You will die in your sin unless you repent and believe!
"if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” - Jesus
This is going to seem to come out of the clear blue sky and isn't precisely on topic for this thread but given what you've said, along with some unrelated discussions I've had recently with others, I want to ask you a question. I promise it isn't a trick question. I'm not trying to lay any traps or do anything but start a conversation with you.
We are in agreement that Jesus is God. We, being Christians also believe that Jesus died at Calvary and rose from the dead and is alive forevermore (Revelation 1:18). We, as Christians, further believe that those who have not placed their trust in Christ are dead in their sin (Ephesians 2:1) and that those of us who have placed our trust in Christ have died in Christ and look forward to sharing in His resurrection. (Romans 6:5)
So, here's my question for you....
What does it mean to die or to be dead?
Right Divider
Body part
I was thinking that this was the missing concept in this thread.
Hello Clete, Thank you for speaking to me.
I get some of my thoughts from this statement, which Jesus made to a man who wanted to be his disciple, "Let the dead bury their dead."
My original question: Weren't the living burying the dead? Explanation: There is a spiritual death as well as a physical. The spiritually dead are those whom will never follow Jesus. Scripture tells us to fear God. Fear the one who can destroy the body and the soul. Now, here is my summation of what happens to the spiritually dead. They go through a process until the end of time and the Lake of Fire. God's graciousness allows the sun to shine on them during their mortal life, but Hell kicks in at death, but at the Lake of Fire I think their unique living entity goes back where it came from. Where? From it's original source.
What about the body? Well,one day God will shake the heavens and the earth ridding it of all the cursed and sin [falling short ailments] within it. Cursed? What has been curse? Ans: the Ground [elements from which our world and man's body was formed]. Our bodies return to that ground, it said to be dust. I think dust means "lifeless-elements" which will some day be shaken out of creation! At the time of the Lake of Fire death and hell are no more for the lost. Lost people experience two deaths - First death - body and second death - dusty body AND soul.
What about the followers of Jesus? ... I happen to think we are already in him spiritually. Through the Holy Spirit which is in us since Jesus gifted it. It's a miracle! When we die our souls will be with the Lord Jesus face to face and as saints we are given robes of white. IOW given purified bodies to put on. We will not be naked/without a body. There we wait and wait until God decides it is time to start shaking things up a bit. First by sending Jesus back to rule for 1,000 years... etc.
Now, my Favorite topic to discuss is: How is Jesus God and man?
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You are mislead. The word is not called God in the Greek lexicons--god is correct. At minimum 20 translations in history has a god at John 1:1--all done by Greek scholars. 3 had was divine, i had was godlike--a god means godlike.
Yes believe he is the one sent by God=the messiah.
"ton theon" is "the God"
And the verse itself reads "in beginning was the logos and the logos was with the God and God was the logos".
The Greek introduces "the Logos" as having been in the beginning, then states that the Logos was with "the God" and then immediately states that that "God" that was just introduced, was "the Logos."
In other words, the Logos was with the God, and He (referring to "the God") was the Logos.
The "kai" ties the two statements together.
"HO LOGOS was with TON THEON" and "THEOS was HO LOGOS" are not two statements talking about different persons. "THEOS" refers back to "TON THEON" just as "HO LOGOS" refers back to "HO LOGOS."
The verse is not introducing "a god" into the verse with the latter.
Okay, so, first of all, thank you for your direct answer! It's sometimes surprisingly hard to get people to do that!
Unfortunately, you've misunderstood my question. That isn't at all your fault though! My question wasn't framed as precisely as it could have been. Most everything you've said here seems correct to me, it just doesn't quite hit the target I was aiming at. Let me try again...
I agree that there are basically two kinds of death, spiritual death and physical death.
Let's say that someone dies physically. One moment they're alive, the next their dead. What's different? What happened that switched them from one state to the other?
Same question for spiritual death. Paul said that "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." So, when Paul died spiritually, what is it that actually happened when his spiritual condition went from being alive to being dead?
Incidentally, I have an answer to this of my own which I'll share with you after you take a stab at this revised version of my question.
People's views on that topic are all over the place. I've often ruffled feathers based on how straight forward a thing I think it is for God to have become a man and it is very tightly associated with this issue of death and so I'm encouraged that your mind went in this direction. It will surely be brought up in some considerable depth before we are finished.
As I said, you are not a Christian.
I do not discuss Christian doctrine with those who actively reject the gospel.
Let me know if you repent but for now...
Good bye!
Yes God is called Ton Theon, the word is called Theos--same at 2 Cor 4:4-God is called Ton Theon, satan is called Theos--0 doubt translating is the same at both spots.
Jesus said--John 17:3--The one who sent him= Father is the only true God--Paul teaches 1 Cor 8:5-6--warns all other gods are false then tells all who God is=There is one God to all=the Father. --its you rejecting Jesus and Gods bible writer. To believe errors brought in by Catholicism at the councils they held.
7djengo7
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Are you @NWL using a sock-puppet TOL account? Or, is it just a standard thing for Russellites/Watchtower Society-slaves to write like English-illiterate savages who could not even pass an exam at the end of an ESL course?
When are you going to do the line where you say "My name is Legion: for we are many"?
Raving Christ-hater, since you refuse to read, and to try to respond rationally to what I wrote, and since you insist on being nothing but meaningless noise on TOL, you're now on "Ignore". Have fun sitting at your own right hand (since you're clearly beside yourself) continuing your insane conversation with yourself!
You put your eternal life in Catholicism translating. Not a wise place to stand. Her own translating proves 100% she is false religion=2Thess 2:3--all protestant branches are in the same boat.Are you @NWL using a sock-puppet TOL account? Or, is it just a standard thing for Russellites/Watchtower Society-slaves to write like English-illiterate savages who could not even pass an exam at the end of an ESL course?
When are you going to do the line where you say "My name is Legion: for we are many"?
Raving Christ-hater, since you refuse to read, and to try to respond rationally to what I wrote, and since you insist on being nothing but meaningless noise on TOL, you're now on "Ignore". Have fun sitting at your own right hand (since you're clearly beside yourself) continuing your insane conversation with yourself!
Remember, what I will write will be what I believe is the correct interpretation regarding symbolism we can find used through out the Bible. I will start with this concept:
Gen. 2 The LORD formed man a body out of the ground [the elements from which the world was made]. Yet, before he started forming that body he added a mist of water [a small measure of spiritual life].
In Genesis three we are told that the blood of Abel called out to the LORD after he was killed.
Later in the NT,we are told LIFE is in the blood, and it is obvious blood is in our physical body.
Now, these two concepts lead me to understand that as the body shuts down the life in the blood is not replenished and this is death. Mankind was only given a mere measure of life in our blood to sustain us physically. The life in the blood wains as the spirit leaves it. What is left is dust. A body of elements without life from God.
Due to the curse upon the ground the potential of death entered our bodies making them mortal; so, this mere measure of spiritual life from God in our bodies must be continually replenished or physical death comes. I drew this concept from the story of 'the Woman at the well.' Jesus said she had earthy water [only a mist of life in her body] which must be replenished, but he had an additional measure of water [Spiritual life from God] to give her eternal life so that she would never thirst again.
I think this is what happens to man's mortal body when it dies. The life in the blood is gone and the remains return to the ground from which is came, but by then it will be like dust - elements having no life from God in it.
So what happens to the small bit of life which was measured out to man's body? Well, it goes back to the Given. Nothing of God is ever lost. Not even measures of life which he shared with creatures. God is eternal.
So what happens to the measure of life given to the unique personality of the individual human spirit? Ans. It is given a body already prepared without hands awaiting it in heaven. We do not shed this mortal body only to be left unclothed [unseen, invisible] but rather to be seen. I think this heavenly body is the robe of white given to the saints while they wait on their glorification according to the works which they did while in their mortal bodies.
Well, this is how I see physical death and what happens to us as individuals after physical death.
I hope your answers match mine. That would be great.
People can be spiritual dead while they live, walk, and talk on earth. Here is my paraphrase of what you shared along with my explanations inside [,...].
I was alive once [on earth] but I did not know the Law [the truth of God's plans for mankind]. But, once the command came [to me from God of what he had established from the beginning] sin became alive in me [I grasped that I was living in a state of sin] and I died [I was humbled to know I was a dead soul in need of a Savior].
The death of his spiritual life came when he understood he was already a dead soul headed for hell and the Lake of Fire. He knew he was a rejected soul! Dead already. But believers all know that dead souls can be rescued by our Savior through his mercy and our repentance. Amen.
I look forward to what you have to say about how God became a man. I do think he did so for this reason: He came to heal to heal the cursed elements of the mortal body and overcome the infirmities. He came to make way for it to be reunited with man's saved unique spiritual essence and be glorified some day according to the works done in that body to glorify the Christ.
Man's unique spiritual essence does not die at physical death. It is held waiting either in a place of peace with our Lord or within a place of torment awaiting final judgment. Waiting there for the end of all things when death and hell will be no more.
God became a man to save mankind and the resurrection of the lifeless body is just one aspect of our salvation.