Daniel1611
New member
So the parts of the gospels you like are true a d the rest aren't. Got it.
Jesus is God !
- Thread starter beloved57
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So the parts of the gospels you like are true a d the rest aren't. Got it.
No, that's a childish reply. I believe the gospel of Jesus hat he preached 3 years before the cross. Rejecting and killing him wasn't his gospel, however human sacrifice of a god-man was already in the religions outside of Judaism, they adopted and merged with Paul's Christian gospel.
I am a disciple of Jesus.
Daniel1611
New member
But the gospels record Jesus claiming to be a sacrifice before the crucifixion. Why is everything he said true but that?
Jesus didn't say sacrifice, that's how sacrifice minded Jews and Gentiles interpreted him which is ok, they were sincere
Daniel1611
New member
He said he would give his life as a ransom for many
That's an idea in circulation after Paul began preaching atonment, because Jesus had preached a gospel to the Jews that he had hoped they would believe, The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus realized he wasn't the Jewish Messiah as they conceived of him, also that he and his gospel was going to be rejected. So he allowed the Fathers guidance to untangle the mess which provided a transitional brige from a Jewish to a Gentile soil.
Daniel1611
New member
And you know this how?
It's obveous from reading what happened.
journey
New member
The MYSTERY that the Apostle Paul preached was revealed to him by Jesus Christ Himself. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ at the Cross was much more than symbolic and was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Jesus Christ and the Cross was a perfect sacrifice and is now the only path to Salvation. Jesus Christ did die on the Cross for the sins of the world. This is the Gospel of the Grace of God, and those who reject what Paul preached are lost.
Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Did your UFO buddies tell you this?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
A few wabbits short of a hare.......
A few wabbits short of a hare.......
Seems like pop-tart theology. This comedy spin however falls very short of a correct assessment of the Urantia Papers, as you've been corrected many times, but you're welcome to the pain of ignorance, until the shackles of dogma become too heavy, and you see that reality is indeed 'universal' and 'omnipresent'....and that 'God'...'Real God' is beyond words, image, form, ideas or concepts. But hey, you gotta make 'God' in your own 'image',...you know how mirror psychology goes
- the religious mind is often bound to worship its own idols or images of 'God' in various forms. Thats the 'personalized' God. There is also a trans-personal 'God' that is beyond all that....but 'God' includes all of that is definable and undefinable.
Now as to consciousness...it is Self-Evident. This awareness right here, right now...reading these words....is the medium or screen in which reality is known, perceived and distorted by various filters. Consciousness is the fundamental medium, the essential field in which all things arise.
Looks like 'Elmer Fudd' is your own creation, along with your other concepts of little green men and UFO-cults, ...you know...the usual misrepresentations you like to indulge, because it makes your religious ego feel good.
What would be left if you dropped all your religious opinions, beliefs, assumptions, ideas, images, concepts? Try it. You would be 'nothing'. You would just BE. Imagine the freedom of that
pj
A few wabbits short of a hare.......
Seems like pop-tart theology. This comedy spin however falls very short of a correct assessment of the Urantia Papers, as you've been corrected many times, but you're welcome to the pain of ignorance, until the shackles of dogma become too heavy, and you see that reality is indeed 'universal' and 'omnipresent'....and that 'God'...'Real God' is beyond words, image, form, ideas or concepts. But hey, you gotta make 'God' in your own 'image',...you know how mirror psychology goes
- the religious mind is often bound to worship its own idols or images of 'God' in various forms. Thats the 'personalized' God. There is also a trans-personal 'God' that is beyond all that....but 'God' includes all of that is definable and undefinable.Now as to consciousness...it is Self-Evident. This awareness right here, right now...reading these words....is the medium or screen in which reality is known, perceived and distorted by various filters. Consciousness is the fundamental medium, the essential field in which all things arise.
Looks like 'Elmer Fudd' is your own creation, along with your other concepts of little green men and UFO-cults, ...you know...the usual misrepresentations you like to indulge, because it makes your religious ego feel good.
What would be left if you dropped all your religious opinions, beliefs, assumptions, ideas, images, concepts? Try it. You would be 'nothing'. You would just BE. Imagine the freedom of that
pj
Hey Freelight, your UFO Cult has nothing to add to the conversation! You're
wasting not only your time but, everybody else's!
wasting not only your time but, everybody else's!
Concentrate on your visits to other planets and stop pretending you're a
Bible scholar!
Bible scholar!
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Questioning a 'ransom'.............
Questioning a 'ransom'.............
And 'ransom' could be interpreted in various ways, while the concept of 'blood-atonement' can be challenged and refuted in other ways, as we've done elsewhere. Can the blood of another man cleanse your from sin, or take away your own responsibility for your own sins? Who is responsible for committing and atoning for your own personal sins but yourself? The blood of animals nor men can atone for sin, apart from the actual repentance and transformation of the soul of the individual himself. One can slay animals all day on an altar, or another man could have been killed as some kind of sacrifice for sin,...but this has no availing power for the sinner, unless by some act of faith, or personal repentance on his part....he makes a reparation or his own sins, and CHOOSES to do RIGHT....making amends/restitution of his former wrongs, and living rightly. This is the only true atonement.
We can write volumes of the symbolic nature of blood and the concept of 'atonement', and these may be helpful as far as religious symbology and metaphor goes, but only true repentance, inner transformation of heart/soul avails to touch God and effect a true response for restoration, healing, forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation, call it what you will. The 'blood of Jesus' does indeed have great power in its symbolism, but such an application or use of it would be in care since it could be mis-interpreted or misapplied in certain contexts.
Again.....splatter all the blood you want on an altar, fill as many bowls and lathers with that blood, and what have you? Sprinkle yourself with blood,...the blood you deem holy enough to have some kind of effect,...and does that blood have the magical power to make you pure, holy? You can assume in some spiritual sense, receiving its 'atoning' affect by faith, that such has availed on your behalf,...but its still all according to your 'belief'. Its a matter 'faith'. So, you're back to square 1....appeasing your own conscience with a religious doctrine, that offers you some kind of resolve, release, or security. Ok, so he was a ransom,...what does that mean,...and try to answer that inquiry in the light of the truths shared above and see what you come up with.
pj
Questioning a 'ransom'.............
And 'ransom' could be interpreted in various ways, while the concept of 'blood-atonement' can be challenged and refuted in other ways, as we've done elsewhere. Can the blood of another man cleanse your from sin, or take away your own responsibility for your own sins? Who is responsible for committing and atoning for your own personal sins but yourself? The blood of animals nor men can atone for sin, apart from the actual repentance and transformation of the soul of the individual himself. One can slay animals all day on an altar, or another man could have been killed as some kind of sacrifice for sin,...but this has no availing power for the sinner, unless by some act of faith, or personal repentance on his part....he makes a reparation or his own sins, and CHOOSES to do RIGHT....making amends/restitution of his former wrongs, and living rightly. This is the only true atonement.
We can write volumes of the symbolic nature of blood and the concept of 'atonement', and these may be helpful as far as religious symbology and metaphor goes, but only true repentance, inner transformation of heart/soul avails to touch God and effect a true response for restoration, healing, forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation, call it what you will. The 'blood of Jesus' does indeed have great power in its symbolism, but such an application or use of it would be in care since it could be mis-interpreted or misapplied in certain contexts.
Again.....splatter all the blood you want on an altar, fill as many bowls and lathers with that blood, and what have you? Sprinkle yourself with blood,...the blood you deem holy enough to have some kind of effect,...and does that blood have the magical power to make you pure, holy? You can assume in some spiritual sense, receiving its 'atoning' affect by faith, that such has availed on your behalf,...but its still all according to your 'belief'. Its a matter 'faith'. So, you're back to square 1....appeasing your own conscience with a religious doctrine, that offers you some kind of resolve, release, or security. Ok, so he was a ransom,...what does that mean,...and try to answer that inquiry in the light of the truths shared above and see what you come up with.
pj
Daniel1611
New member
You say man can can atone for his own sin. But there is none righteous. There is none that understandeth. The is none that doeth good. No not one. You cannot work your own sins away. Suppose you crack an egg in your skillet and its rotten. Do you just throw in a few fresh eggs to cover up the rotten one? No. The rotten one must be removed. And so bad deeds cannot be covered up with good deeds.
Daniel1611, God is a loving and forgiving Father to the faith child who repents of his true deeds and returns to the family of believers. An innocent man or animal doesn't need to be killed before God just forgives.
Luke 7:50
49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?" 50And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
In the original gospel God was already forgiving. Paul's version of the gospel made the cross conditional.
Daniel1611
New member
New Age garbage. "The parts that we can twist into our new age garbage is true and the rest is false. The true parts are obvious. The parts we like are true, duh.". That's what it really is.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Self-responsibility
Self-responsibility
How else? One is responsible for his own sins and salvation.
I think you need to reconsider the whole 'atonement' concept, and also see that while the OT had instituted animal sacrifices, it was still understood in some sense and later more clearly defined by the prophets that each individual is responsible for his own sins. Therefore no one person or even 'demi-god' or 'messiah' can totally atone for the sins of an individual, much less a whole people.
The righteous sacrifice of one's soul in service to others of course does have an 'atoning' affect, as Jesus life did and DOES,....since he gave his life in the service of others inspired by love. This outpouring of love can absolve, relax, cover, alleviate negative karma to a degree, BUT....every soul is at last RESPONSIBLE for his own sin (not his ancestors)....and this goes for an individual's righteousness...since he cannot 'piggyback' on his father's righteousness and call it his own. This puts even more serious implications in the whole 'atonement' of Jesus, since one assumes by 'faith', that Jesus took the penalty for their sins, and in the same sweep takes on his 'righteousness' as well. This is an impressive 2-fold compensation plan,...but the actual law of compensation (karma) demands justly and mercifully that each soul make his own atonement via 'repentance' and all that a genuine repentance includes (restititution, amends, reparation, change of life, etc.)
This is merely one prophet's look on the imperfection of the human condition. We recognize the human condition and all its imperfections,....AND that the Master also beckons us to strive towards 'perfection'. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". The path towards perfection from a less than perfect state includes 'learning', 'trial and error', 'development', 'refining', 'evolution', 'transformation', 'knowledge', 'understanding'.
I don't recall implying such, or 'wording' it in such a way. 'Sin' is a concept. All the elements involved in transformation have their part in absolving sin, purifying/perfecting oneself in grace.
I don't think the 'cracked egg' model holds, but is interesting Remember the old commercial that said, "this is what your brain looks like on drugs"...and there was a cracked egg cooking in a skillet. (something to that effect). I think it funny, that one could also say "this is what your brain looks like on theology" - that would raise a few eyebrows.
In any case,...your missing the forest for the trees, and not getting some points involved in the whole concept of atonement, which doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with either good or bad deeds. 'Repentance' includes a transformation of heart/mind which then produces 'change', 'good works', 'doing God's will', etc.
Remember the principle of 'self-responsibility' here. If someone is just gonna come along and DO IT ALL for you,...what kind of service is that to you? This OSAS, free-ride, happy-ticket to heaven route, doesn't hold up since it bypasses the principle of 'self-responsibility'.
pj
Self-responsibility
How else? One is responsible for his own sins and salvation.
I think you need to reconsider the whole 'atonement' concept, and also see that while the OT had instituted animal sacrifices, it was still understood in some sense and later more clearly defined by the prophets that each individual is responsible for his own sins. Therefore no one person or even 'demi-god' or 'messiah' can totally atone for the sins of an individual, much less a whole people.
The righteous sacrifice of one's soul in service to others of course does have an 'atoning' affect, as Jesus life did and DOES,....since he gave his life in the service of others inspired by love. This outpouring of love can absolve, relax, cover, alleviate negative karma to a degree, BUT....every soul is at last RESPONSIBLE for his own sin (not his ancestors)....and this goes for an individual's righteousness...since he cannot 'piggyback' on his father's righteousness and call it his own. This puts even more serious implications in the whole 'atonement' of Jesus, since one assumes by 'faith', that Jesus took the penalty for their sins, and in the same sweep takes on his 'righteousness' as well. This is an impressive 2-fold compensation plan,...but the actual law of compensation (karma) demands justly and mercifully that each soul make his own atonement via 'repentance' and all that a genuine repentance includes (restititution, amends, reparation, change of life, etc.)
This is merely one prophet's look on the imperfection of the human condition. We recognize the human condition and all its imperfections,....AND that the Master also beckons us to strive towards 'perfection'. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". The path towards perfection from a less than perfect state includes 'learning', 'trial and error', 'development', 'refining', 'evolution', 'transformation', 'knowledge', 'understanding'.
I don't recall implying such, or 'wording' it in such a way. 'Sin' is a concept. All the elements involved in transformation have their part in absolving sin, purifying/perfecting oneself in grace.
I don't think the 'cracked egg' model holds, but is interesting
Remember the old commercial that said, "this is what your brain looks like on drugs"...and there was a cracked egg cooking in a skillet. (something to that effect). I think it funny, that one could also say "this is what your brain looks like on theology" - that would raise a few eyebrows.In any case,...your missing the forest for the trees, and not getting some points involved in the whole concept of atonement, which doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with either good or bad deeds. 'Repentance' includes a transformation of heart/mind which then produces 'change', 'good works', 'doing God's will', etc.
Remember the principle of 'self-responsibility' here. If someone is just gonna come along and DO IT ALL for you,...what kind of service is that to you? This OSAS, free-ride, happy-ticket to heaven route, doesn't hold up since it bypasses the principle of 'self-responsibility'.
pj
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Daniel1611
New member
Many will say on that day "Lord Lord. Have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out demons? And in thy name done many wonderful works?"
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Still missing the bigger picture here. Grace, faith, works, self-responsibility....these all work in sync in their inter-actions. Heart-conversion, transformation, the continual gesture of repentance and DOING God's will.....are all included in the gamut of true religion.
pj