Jesus is God !

[Bright Raven]

He is neither, you just do not see what Jesus said.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Who were the witnesses to what Christ said?

 

[Lon]

Lon, I can never be a Trin again, I know to much.

:nono: You can never know 'too much.' I have a bit of sympathy for the Unitarian and see some of your dilemma more clearly having debated this awhile. While I can sympathize, I cannot dismiss ANY scripture. John 1:1 and 20:28 AND the Apostle Paul calling Jesus God when the Israelites 'tempted Him.' There is NO knowledge that 'can' take that away, therefore you CANNOT know too much. What you can do is come to God and say "I'm still trying to honor Who You actually are, Lord. Help me know you."

Too much? :nono: You can't know enough, nor can I. Ephesians 3:17-19 Ephesians 2:20,21 summarizes that and has been in my sig for a good many years now.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus is The Only Begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Psalms 2:7 - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Exodus 33:17-20 "And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."


There are 3 that testify in Heaven.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html

The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament. In these editions the verses appear thus (we put backets around the extra words):

ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ] τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.

The King James Version, which was based upon these editions, gives the following translation:

For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus:

Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt.

Evasion and Rabbit trail !

 

[NWL]

The First and the Last, there is only one God would be fine.

15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

18. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Firstly straight from the get go it should be obvious who the "one God" is, since its clearly states who he is in one of the scriptures you showed, namely, 1 Cor 8:6, which states "there is one God, the Father".

To a Hebrew or greek speaking Israelite the word "God/god" (be it Elohim, El, Eloah, ho theos, theos, theon) did not mean what it does in English today, in English God refers to one almighty being, whereas to them it meant a person a mighty or powerful person. They were literally calling God the powerful/mighty/divine one unlike our use of the word God today which is more of a title. Hence the reason why other both in the OT and NT are referred to as gods (see John 10: 34, 35 [human judges], 1 Corinthians 8:5 [other divine beings], 2 Corinthians 4:4 [Satan], Psalm 8:5 [Angels]).

However, in most cases when they wanted to refer to the God of the bible, the God of Abraham, they referred to him as "the God", this was done by the usage of "ho(the) theos(god)". This simple appears as "God" in scripture with translators leaving out the "the".

15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

YHWH here being called the first and the last is not the same as Jesus being called the F&L in Rev 1:17; 2:8. We can see by context that the title F&L are applied to YHWH and Jesus in different ways, this is evident by the context of surrounding scripture.

Jesus F&L statements relate to his death and resurrection as shown below:

(Revelation 1:17,18) "..I am the First and the Last, I am the living one. I died, but look--I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave..."

(Revelation 2:8) “..These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.."

YHWH's F&L statements relate to him being the only God of Israel:

(Isaiah 44:6,8) This is what Jehovah says..‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me...Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.’..”

(Isaiah 48:5,11,12) "I [YHWH] told you long ago. Before it came about, I caused you to hear it, So that you could not say, ‘My idol did this; My carved image and my metal image commanded this.’...For my own sake, for my own sake I will act, For how could I let myself be profaned? I give my glory to no one else. Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last.."

We also know the F&L statements when applied to Jesus don't refer to him being God because if they did then it would be claiming that God died. Trinitarians often state some verses apply to Jesus human nature or his divine nature. Rev 1:17; 2:8 no doubt would refer to his divine nature since according to you its proof that he is God, thus you are also unwittingly admitting that God became dead, which is impossible. The F&L statement MUST refer to something else other than him being deity.

 

[NWL]

Except Jesus bore witness of HIMSELF, and the Pharisees called Him out on it. Here is His response to them.

The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, [JESUS]“Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”[/JESUS] Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, [JESUS]“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”[/JESUS] - John 8:13-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:13-19&version=NKJV

AGAIN, Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He is God, because NO PROPHET EVER ever bore witness of himself.

Go read the verses I put in the spoiler box. Look at how, when you take all of those verses into consideration, He places the entire focus of His message on Himself.

Why?

Because HE IS THE MESSAGE.

The OT prophets spoke of Him, He spoke of Himself.

Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He's God Himself.

There are NO alternatives.

The mistake you're making is thinking that Jesus bearing witness about himself or saying the things he said in scriptures you listed in the spoiler tab equal blasphemy, where in scripture do we find such a notion? We Don't! It's simply your wrong assumption that Jesus bearing witness of himself, by the command of the Father, equates blasphemy, it doesn't!

So unless you can find an example in scripture that show bearing witness of oneself equates equality with God, then your point is void.

I had a look through them when you initially messaged me. I don't get this idea that how Jesus is exactly blaspheming if not God, Jesus makes it abundantly clear in John 8 when speaking with the Jews that the Father was the one who sent him, (see John 8:16,18,26,29,42) Jesus taught that the "one who is sent [is not] greater than the one who sent him" (John 13:16).

It's clear that the fact Jesus bore witness of himself, by speaking the words of the Father, does not negate the fact that he was sent by the father, implying he was subordinate to him and simply speaking of himself by the decree of the Father.

No response, JudgeRightly?

 

[Bright Raven]

Firstly straight from the get go it should be obvious who the "one God" is, since its clearly states who he is in one of the scriptures you showed, namely, 1 Cor 8:6, which states "there is one God, the Father".

To a Hebrew or greek speaking Israelite the word "God/god" (be it Elohim, El, Eloah, ho theos, theos, theon) did not mean what it does in English today, in English God refers to one almighty being, whereas to them it meant a person a mighty or powerful person. They were literally calling God the powerful/mighty/divine one unlike our use of the word God today which is more of a title. Hence the reason why other both in the OT and NT are referred to as gods (see John 10: 34, 35 [human judges], 1 Corinthians 8:5 [other divine beings], 2 Corinthians 4:4 [Satan], Psalm 8:5 [Angels]).

However, in most cases when they wanted to refer to the God of the bible, the God of Abraham, they referred to him as "the God", this was done by the usage of "ho(the) theos(god)". This simple appears as "God" in scripture with translators leaving out the "the".



YHWH here being called the first and the last is not the same as Jesus being called the F&L in Rev 1:17; 2:8. We can see by context that the title F&L are applied to YHWH and Jesus in different ways, this is evident by the context of surrounding scripture.

Jesus F&L statements relate to his death and resurrection as shown below:

(Revelation 1:17,18) "..I am the First and the Last, I am the living one. I died, but look--I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave..."

(Revelation 2:8) “..These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.."

YHWH's F&L statements relate to him being the only God of Israel:

(Isaiah 44:6,8) This is what Jehovah says..‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me...Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.’..”

(Isaiah 48:5,11,12) "I [YHWH] told you long ago. Before it came about, I caused you to hear it, So that you could not say, ‘My idol did this; My carved image and my metal image commanded this.’...For my own sake, for my own sake I will act, For how could I let myself be profaned? I give my glory to no one else. Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last.."

We also know the F&L statements when applied to Jesus don't refer to him being God because if they did then it would be claiming that God died. Trinitarians often state some verses apply to Jesus human nature or his divine nature. Rev 1:17; 2:8 no doubt would refer to his divine nature since according to you its proof that he is God, thus you are also unwittingly admitting that God became dead, which is impossible. The F&L statement MUST refer to something else other than him being deity.

I think you pick and Choose. God says that He is the First and the Last. Scripture says that Jesus is the First and Last. Show me what give you the authority that that the First and the Last in the book of revelation is not Jehovah God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No response, JudgeRightly?

Sorry, been enjoying my weekend. I should have an answer for you by the end of the day.

 

[NWL]

I think you pick and Choose. God says that He is the First and the Last. Scripture says that Jesus is the First and Last. Show me what give you the authority that that the First and the Last in the book of revelation is not Jehovah God.

How can you claim I pick and choose when I clearly explained my position from the scriptures? Surely for me to pick and choose I would have had to made a claim and provide zero evidence for that claim, which I haven't done.

I've clearly shown you what has given me the authority, since the scriptures themselves show it.

Jesus can't be the F&L in the same sense as YHWH since the verses that call Jesus the F&L state that the F&L died. The F&L, if relating to deity, cannot die, thus Jesus being the F&L must relate to something other than him being God.

Moreover, the context clearly shows that Jesus F&L statements refer to his death and resurrection when YHWH first and last statements relate to him being the only God by reviewing the contextual evidence.

Again this is hardly picking and choosing but rather clear evidence.

 

[JudgeRightly]

How can you claim I pick and choose when I clearly explained my position from the scriptures? Surely for me to pick and choose I would have had to made a claim and provide zero evidence for that claim, which I haven't done.

I've clearly shown you what has given me the authority, since the scriptures themselves show it.

Jesus can't be the F&L in the same sense as YHWH since the verses that call Jesus the F&L state that the F&L died. The F&L, if relating to deity, cannot die, thus Jesus being the F&L must relate to something other than him being God.

Moreover, the context clearly shows that Jesus F&L statements refer to his death and resurrection when YHWH first and last statements relate to him being the only God by reviewing the contextual evidence.

Again this is hardly picking and choosing but rather clear evidence.

So you're denying the incarnation of God?

 

[NWL]

So you're denying the incarnation of God?

You yourself don't believe in the incarnation of God you believe in the incarnation of Jesus who makes up one third of God. Unless you believe in modalism, or that Jesus is God in his entirety (as in God=YHWH, then you don't believe in the incarnation of God.

The incarnation of God (God=Father/Son/Hs) in human form, to a trinitarian, should imply that the Father/Son/Hs was incarnated as a single perosn, or at the very least, three separate persons.

Yes I deny it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The mistake you're making is thinking that Jesus bearing witness about himself or saying the things he said in scriptures you listed in the spoiler tab equal blasphemy, where in scripture do we find such a notion?

That's not even the point I'm making. Please focus. My point is that Jesus' message is overwhelmingly about Himself, in that He claims everything that God claims.

Go read the list again, and with each phrase, ask yourself if any created being has the authority to make those claims. For example, does any human, angel, or other created being have the right, the authority, to claim the 10 commandments as, "My Commandments?"

We Don't! It's simply your wrong assumption that Jesus bearing witness of himself, by the command of the Father, equates blasphemy, it doesn't!

See above.

So unless you can find an example in scripture that show bearing witness of oneself equates equality with God, then your point is void.

Again, see above.

I had a look through them when you initially messaged me. I don't get this idea that how Jesus is exactly blaspheming if not God, Jesus makes it abundantly clear in John 8 when speaking with the Jews that the Father was the one who sent him, (see John 8:16,18,26,29,42) Jesus taught that the "one who is sent [is not] greater than the one who sent him" (John 13:16).

If Jesus was not God, but just a created being, then Him saying the 10 commandments are "My Commandments" is blasphemy, Him saying "for My name's sake" leave family and property, and even be killed, is blasphemy.

Go read through them again, asking yourself if any created being could rightfully say those things and not be blaspheming God.

It's clear that the fact Jesus bore witness of himself, by speaking the words of the Father, does not negate the fact that he was sent by the father, implying he was subordinate to him and simply speaking of himself by the decree of the Father.

The Son being sent by the Father is not in question, nor is the concept that the Son submits His will to the Father. The Deity of Christ is what we're discussing here. Please avoid rabbit trails and stay on topic.

You yourself don't believe in the incarnation of God you believe in the incarnation of Jesus who makes up one third of God.

Incorrect.

1 Timothy 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh."
John 1:1,14 "God was the Word . . . And the Word was made flesh and tabernacled among us."

I believe Jesus is fully God, just as the Father is fully God, just as the Spirit is fully God, yet all are one God. I don't believe that Jesus nor the Father, nor the Spirit are each 1/3 God.

Unless you believe in modalism,

I'm not a modalist.

or that Jesus is God in his entirety (as in God=YHWH, then you don't believe in the incarnation of God.

See above.

The incarnation of God (God=Father/Son/Hs)

Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit came in the flesh. Only the Son came in the flesh.

in human form, to a trinitarian, should imply that the Father/Son/Hs was incarnated as a single person, or at the very least, three separate persons.

God is one God, one spirit, three Persons.

Only the Son (who is a Person) came as a Man.

The Father and the Holy Spirit (the two other Persons of the Godhead) did not.

Yes I deny it.

:red::red::red::red:

Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

 

[Bright Raven]

How can you claim I pick and choose when I clearly explained my position from the scriptures? Surely for me to pick and choose I would have had to made a claim and provide zero evidence for that claim, which I haven't done.

I've clearly shown you what has given me the authority, since the scriptures themselves show it.

Jesus can't be the F&L in the same sense as YHWH since the verses that call Jesus the F&L state that the F&L died. The F&L, if relating to deity, cannot die, thus Jesus being the F&L must relate to something other than him being God.

Moreover, the context clearly shows that Jesus F&L statements refer to his death and resurrection when YHWH first and last statements relate to him being the only God by reviewing the contextual evidence.

Again this is hardly picking and choosing but rather clear evidence.

This is my position;

From gotquestions.org

Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega” in Revelation 1:8, 11; 21:6; and 22:13. Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Among the Jewish rabbis, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Jesus as the beginning and end of all things is a reference to no one but the true God. This statement of eternality could apply only to God. It is seen especially in Revelation 22:13, where Jesus proclaims that He is “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

One of the meanings of Jesus being the “Alpha and Omega” is that He was at the beginning of all things and will be at the close. It is equivalent to saying He always existed and always will exist. It was Christ, as second Person of the Trinity, who brought about the creation: “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3), and His Second Coming will be the beginning of the end of creation as we know it (2 Peter 3:10). As God incarnate, He has no beginning, nor will He have any end with respect to time, being from everlasting to everlasting.

A second meaning of Jesus as the “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places. “I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4). “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.

Christ, as the Alpha and Omega, is the first and last in so many ways. He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), signifying that He begins it and carries it through to completion. He is the totality, the sum and substance of the Scriptures, both of the Law and of the Gospel (John 1:1, 14). He is the fulfilling end of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and He is the beginning subject matter of the gospel of grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). He is found in the first verse of Genesis and in the last verse of Revelation. He is the first and last, the all in all of salvation, from the justification before God to the final sanctification of His people.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Only God incarnate could make such a statement. Only Jesus Christ is God incarnate.

 

[NWL]

That's not even the point I'm making. Please focus. My point is that Jesus' message is overwhelmingly about Himself, in that He claims everything that God claims.

Go read the list again, and with each phrase, ask yourself if any created being has the authority to make those claims. For example, does any human, angel, or other created being have the right, the authority, to claim the 10 commandments as, "My Commandments?"

Your whole argument is based on a false premise, hence the reason I highlighted it, which you claimed was me "not focusing". In other words cannot answer you question or respond directly because I do no accept the foundation on which your argument is based.

No, you misunderstand me. Again, you state "[what] created being has the authority to make those claims?", you account Jesus words -if he is not God- as blasphemous and unwarranted since you "think" only God can say the things that you listed in your previous reply. Again I ask you, where does the bible set such standards? No such standard or thought is found in your scriptures, it's merely your false assumption that Jesus could only say such things if he was God.

For example, does any human, angel, or other created being have the right, the authority, to claim the 10 commandments as, "My Commandments?

No scripture has Jesus calling the 10 commandments "his commandments", Jesus speaks to others about following and keeping his commandments but he is NOT talking about the commandments of the OT when doing so, to claim such a thing would be an "assumption".

Show me the scripture where Jesus called the 10 commandments his commandments, in particular highlight to me in the verse(s) you show me where he was referring to were the 10 commandments of the OT when stating such a thing.

Him saying "for My name's sake" leave family and property, and even be killed, is blasphemy.

Why would this be blasphemy, again, your argument is based on a false premise, that to do something in the name of oneself, even though those actions were instructed by a superior for the sake of that superiors glory, equates blasphemy. Again, all Jesus actions were to bring glory to the father. Phil chapter 2 states that EVERY knee on heaven AND on earth will bend to Jesus, and that EVERYONE is to acknowldge Jesus is Lord! BUT, to whose glory???

"..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."(Philippians 2:10, 11)

Every action Jesus did was to please the Father, so again, how is it somehow blasphemous for Jesus to do as the father instructs? As we can see in Phil 2:9, it was the Father who put Jesus name above all, this was not so Jesus was glorified however, but, so that HE HIMSELF could be glorified.

Go read through them again, asking yourself if any created being could rightfully say those things and not be blaspheming God.

Yes they could, see Phil 2:9-11. Its because the Father wills it since it was through Jesus sacrifice -as decreed by the Father- that all mankind is saved, Jesus was the sacrificial lamb like what Israelite's use to offer to YHWH for the forgiveness of sins due Adam inherited sin (Romans 5:12). Since Jesus blots out Adamic sin, it is through Jesus we are saved, thus we go to the Father THROUGH Jesus.

So Jesus telling people to listen to him, or follow him or that he will give them eternal life is NOT blasphemous since this was the Father command. It WOULD be blasphemous if Jesus kept all the glory and praise he received for himself, but he doesn't, since, as Phil 2:11 states, its for the glory of God the Father.

Incorrect.

1 Timothy 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh."
John 1:1,14 "God was the Word . . . And the Word was made flesh and tabernacled among us."

Your quoting from a translation of a text which isn't found in any manuscript prior to the 8th CE my friend, which has also found to be added in. in various manuscript at later dates other than when they were written, the translation your quoting is spurious.

I also do not agree with your translation of John 1:1 due to both contextual and grammatical reasons. No modern scholar would agree with you that "God was the word" since it contradicts that John 1:1a, that the word was with that God who he was.

I believe Jesus is fully God, just as the Father is fully God, just as the Spirit is fully God, yet all are one God. I don't believe that Jesus nor the Father, nor the Spirit are each 1/3 God.

Are the three Gods then or one? If there's "one God", who is the F/S/HS and "God/(F/S/HS)" had an incarnation, and Jesus was that incarnation, then Jesus was the F/S/HS. If he wasn't, then he wasn't an incarnation of God, since, God=Father/Son/HS and not God=Jesus, according to you and your fellow trinitarians.

I'm not a modalist.

Then why do you say God (God=Father/Son/HS) had an incarnation who was Jesus. Remember, it's the trinitarian position that there is one God who is three persons. Thus, if God had an incarnation, that incarnation had to be the Father AND the Son AND HS, if he wasn't then how can you claim it was an incarnation of God when God equates three persons and not one.

Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit came in the flesh. Only the Son came in the flesh.

Agreed.

God is one God, one spirit, three Persons.

Only the Son (who is a Person) came as a Man.

The Father and the Holy Spirit (the two other Persons of the Godhead) did not.

Then God was not incarnate as you're missing the two other persons who make the one God. Are Jesus and the Father one God? No, three are. Are the HS and Jesus the one God? No three are. Are Jesus the Father the one God. No Three are.

Then how is it you claim Jesus, who only makes up one person of the three person God, the incarnation of God if God is three persons.

 

[NWL]

This is my position;

From gotquestions.org

Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega” in Revelation 1:8, 11; 21:6; and 22:13. Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Among the Jewish rabbis, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Jesus as the beginning and end of all things is a reference to no one but the true God. This statement of eternality could apply only to God. It is seen especially in Revelation 22:13, where Jesus proclaims that He is “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

One of the meanings of Jesus being the “Alpha and Omega” is that He was at the beginning of all things and will be at the close. It is equivalent to saying He always existed and always will exist. It was Christ, as second Person of the Trinity, who brought about the creation: “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3), and His Second Coming will be the beginning of the end of creation as we know it (2 Peter 3:10). As God incarnate, He has no beginning, nor will He have any end with respect to time, being from everlasting to everlasting.

A second meaning of Jesus as the “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places. “I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4). “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.

Christ, as the Alpha and Omega, is the first and last in so many ways. He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), signifying that He begins it and carries it through to completion. He is the totality, the sum and substance of the Scriptures, both of the Law and of the Gospel (John 1:1, 14). He is the fulfilling end of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and He is the beginning subject matter of the gospel of grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). He is found in the first verse of Genesis and in the last verse of Revelation. He is the first and last, the all in all of salvation, from the justification before God to the final sanctification of His people.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Only God incarnate could make such a statement. Only Jesus Christ is God incarnate.

Another copy and paste, how thoughtful.

Please answer me BR, if Jesus is the alpha and omega (A&O) in Rev 1:8, who is also mentioned as the "one who is who was and who is coming" then why does is state in Rev 1:4,5 that Jesus is a separate person from him? Maybe it's because he's not him but you've been lied to your whole life by these article you copy and paste.

Notice in Rev 1:8 the "alpha and omega" is also named "the One who is and who was and who is coming"; (Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now notice Rev 1:4,5 which clearly has the "the One who is and who was and who is coming", who we know is the A&O mentioned as a separate person from Jesus whom you claim is the "A&O" the "the One who is and who was and who is coming": (Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,  and from Jesus Christ.."

So again, if Jesus is the A&O in Rev 1:8 why does it mention him as separate from him in Rev 1:4,5?

If you can't answer the question and with your response being credible then please take my advice and stop reading trinitarian propaganda.

 

[glorydaz]

Another copy and paste, how thoughtful.

Please answer me BR, if Jesus is the alpha and omega (A&O) in Rev 1:8, who is also mentioned as the "one who is who was and who is coming" then why does is state in Rev 1:4,5 that Jesus is a separate person from him? Maybe it's because he's not him but you've been lied to your whole life by these article you copy and paste.

Notice in Rev 1:8 the "alpha and omega" is also named "the One who is and who was and who is coming"; (Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now notice Rev 1:4,5 which clearly has the "the One who is and who was and who is coming", who we know is the A&O mentioned as a separate person from Jesus whom you claim is the "A&O" the "the One who is and who was and who is coming": (Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,  and from Jesus Christ.."

So again, if Jesus is the A&O in Rev 1:8 why does it mention him as separate from him in Rev 1:4,5?

If you can't answer the question and with your response being credible then please take my advice and stop reading trinitarian propaganda.

I have an idea. Read the verses in context....all of them. That same Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, is He that "liveth, and was dead...."

Rev. 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev. 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

 

[Bright Raven]

Another copy and paste, how thoughtful.

Please answer me BR, if Jesus is the alpha and omega (A&O) in Rev 1:8, who is also mentioned as the "one who is who was and who is coming" then why does is state in Rev 1:4,5 that Jesus is a separate person from him? Maybe it's because he's not him but you've been lied to your whole life by these article you copy and paste.

Notice in Rev 1:8 the "alpha and omega" is also named "the One who is and who was and who is coming"; (Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now notice Rev 1:4,5 which clearly has the "the One who is and who was and who is coming", who we know is the A&O mentioned as a separate person from Jesus whom you claim is the "A&O" the "the One who is and who was and who is coming": (Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,  and from Jesus Christ.."

So again, if Jesus is the A&O in Rev 1:8 why does it mention him as separate from him in Rev 1:4,5?

If you can't answer the question and with your response being credible then please take my advice and stop reading trinitarian propaganda.

I understand the Alpha and the Omega, you don't. Sorry, I do not agree with you.

 

[NWL]

I have an idea. Read the verses in context....all of them. That same Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, is He that "liveth, and was dead...."

Rev. 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev. 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

The context contradicts your position, can the alpha and omega die? No, can the first and the last die? No. Thus the first and the last when applied to Jesus must relate to something else other than him being deity since it clearly states the F&L died. The context is clear, Jesus being the first and the last has something to do with his death and resurrection, it is not talking about him being an eternal deity.

Jesus being called the first and the last means F&L in a different sense to other times YHWH was called the F&L in the OT and from the alpha and omega statement found in Rev 1:8.

As already stated, the context of Rev 1:4,5 has Jesus as a separate person from the A&O in Rev 1:8, therefore Jesus was not the A&O in Rev 1:8, this is irrefutable.

Trinitarians claim Jesus is the A&O and “the One who is and who was and who is coming"
according to Rev 1:8 (Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

But Rev 1:4,5 shows that Jesus is seperate from “the One who is and who was and who is coming",
therefore the argument fails. (Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,  and from Jesus Christ.."

 

[NWL]

I understand the Alpha and the Omega, you don't. Sorry, I do not agree with you.

If you understand it then please enlighten me, why does Rev 1:4,5 separate Jesus from the A&O if he is the A&O in Rev 1:8?

Do you enjoy being blind?

(2 Corinthians 4:4) "..among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.."

 

[Bright Raven]

If you understand it then please enlighten me, why does Rev 1:4,5 separate Jesus from the A&O if he is the A&O in Rev 1:8?

Do you enjoy being blind?

(2 Corinthians 4:4) "..among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.."

You are mistaken. There is no separation.

 

[glorydaz]

The context contradicts your position, can the alpha and omega die?

He can. He is God come down from heaven to dwell among us. He can, and He did.

No, can the first and the last die? No.

Yes, and yes again. He said He did, and was raised bodily from the dead.

He always was and always will be. Did He stop being God when He took on the form of a burning bush? Or a pillar of cloud?

Thus the first and the last when applied to Jesus must relate to something else other than him being deity since it clearly states the F&L died.

It's a question you can't answer, because you deny Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.​

The context is clear, Jesus being the first and the last has something to do with his death and resurrection, it is not talking about him being an eternal deity.

Jesus being called the first and the last means F&L in a different sense to other times YHWH was called the F&L in the OT and from the alpha and omega statement found in Rev 1:8.

As already stated, the context of Rev 1:4,5 has Jesus as a separate person from the A&O in Rev 1:8, therefore Jesus was not the A&O in Rev 1:8, this is irrefutable.

Irrefutable? That's a giveaway ...showing you have it fixed solidly in your mind that Jesus cannot be God. Don't tell me...you're a JW, aren't you?

Well, let's try actually reading what the text says. Check out all the and's. There isn't just the one separating the ONE from HIS throne, and the Jesus Christ as you would hope to slide through.

Revelation 1:4-5
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,​

Trinitarians claim Jesus is the A&O and “the One who is and who was and who is coming"
according to Rev 1:8 (Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

But Rev 1:4,5 shows that Jesus is seperate from “the One who is and who was and who is coming",
therefore the argument fails.

Spoiler

(Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,  and from Jesus Christ.."

Nope, verses 4 and 5 are quite clear. John is speaking for the ONE, and for the Seven Spirits that are before HIS THRONE. He is the that ONE from Gen. to Revelation. Jesus Christ is the entire list you see there. The First and the Last, the faithful witness...from Him and unto Him.