Jesus is God !

Lon

Well-known member
Your so in the dark Lon.
"You're" not that I'm this particular, but with you, I know it isn't a miss of the fingers. You don't see the difference (means you're in the dark, Keypurr). You've actually said things to others, I'd said to you a couple of years ago. In a while, you'll be a Trinitarian and arguing with us about being Trinitarians. You are already doing it. You might have had a good mind in the past (in your estimation) but you are slowly becoming Triune arguing with us, as you became Arian arguing with JW's. The longer you are here, the more Trinitarian you are becoming. I've seen it.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
So your agreeing that the logos needed a body?

To become a MAN, He needed to have a physical body.

That Jesus from being the logos then.

The logos is a SPIRIT, not a man. The logos was IN Jesus.

Case dismissed.

No, Keypurr, you're adding to scripture.

The Bible says that the Logos (who was a spirit (because He was God)) BECAME FLESH.

The Bible DOES NOT SAY that the Logos INDWELT flesh.

f493f9d47f0ea02dce739237b7fc911b.jpg


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:14&version=NKJV

And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth. - John 1:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:14&version=GNV

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:14&version=CSB

The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:14&version=CJB

And the Dvar Hashem took on gufaniyut (corporeality) and made his sukkah, his Mishkan (Tabernacle) among us [ YESHAYAH 7:14 ], and we [Shlichim, 1Y 1:1-2 ] gazed upon his Kavod [ SHEMOT 33:18; 40:34 ; YESHAYAH 60:1-2 ], the Shechinah of the Ben Yachid from Elohim HaAv, full of Hashem’s Chesed v’Emes. - Yochanan 1:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Yochanan1:14&version=OJB

And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:14&version=YLT

Keypurr, every single translation says he became flesh and dwelt among us (the greek word literally meaning "to make one's tent").

Jesus was God from before He was born. He is the WORD.
 

NWL

Active member
You are a Jehovah's Witness. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

So me being a Jehovah's witness somehow proves what? You are a trinitarian, you believe Jesus is God, does this mean that the biblical context of Rev 2:8 magically changes to mean that Jesus is God, I would think not.

The context of Rev 2:8 is proof that Jesus isn't God.
 
Last edited:

NWL

Active member
Either Jesus is a liar, he's a lunatic, or he's God. God makes the claim that He is the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. Only God has the right to call Himself that.

Jesus makes the claim that he is the First and Last. That leaves only three options:

Jesus is a liar, in which case, nothing he says can be trusted.

Jesus is a lunatic, in which case, we can dismiss everything he said.

Jesus is LORD (YHWH), in which case, any arguments against Him being God are blasphemous.

This isn't necessarily the case. Just because two different people hold the same title/ephitits doesn't iply those people are the same persons. In bible we have the phrases "King of Kings", I'm sure if I were to ask you who the "King of kings" your anwer would be Jesus, yet we find others in the bible having the same titile.

(Ezra 7:12) "...“Ar·ta·xerxʹes, the king of kings.."

(Ezekiel 26:7) "...“For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Here I am bringing King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon against Tyre from the north; he is a king of kings..."


Jesus is called the First and the last as is the father, again, this doesn't imply they are the same person, especially when the context of every single one of Jesus "first and last" statements has it referring to his death and resurrection and not to him being eternal as it is with the other statements when YHWH states it.

(Revelation 1:17, 18) "..When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave..."

(Revelation 2:8) “...And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again..."


The context is clear, its first and last in relation to Jesus is in reference to his death and resurrection and not him being eternal.

First and the last in reference to YHWH is in reference to him being eternal. They're both the first and the last but in different senses.
 
Last edited:

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
So me being a Jehovah's witness somehow proves what? You are a trinitarian, you believe Jesus is God, does this mean that the biblical context of Rev 2:8 magically changes to mean that Jesus is God, I would think not.

The context of Rev 2:8 is proof that Jesus isn't God.
This post was originally posted in a response to Keypurr in the Trinity thread, but I'll use it here too, in response to you.

NWL, throughout the OT God's prophets say, "Thus saith the LORD."

Yet NOT ONCE do we see that in the NT. Instead, we see Jesus saying, "I say unto you."

Spoiler


“Follow Me” 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22

Pray and act “in My name” 18xMt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13?14; 15:16; 16:23?24, 26; Acts 9:15

“the Holy Spirit” comes “in My name” Jn. 14:26

“for My name’s sake” leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5xMt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16

Believe in the “name of the… Son” and “in the Son” 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and “in Him [Jesus]” 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31

“believe in Me” 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15?16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20

You “are sanctified by faith in Me” Acts 26:18

Live “in Me” Jn. 11:26

“come after Me” Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27

Abide “in Me” Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 “abide in Me” or else Jn. 15:6 “abide in My love” Jn. 15:9?10

“where two or three are gathered,” Jesus is “there in the midst of them” Mt. 18:20

So too: “I [Jesus, will abide] in you” Jn. 15:4?5

“know that I am He” Jn. 8:28 or “if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins” Jn. 8:24

Do things “for My sake” Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life “for My sake” 4xMt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22

“I never knew you, depart from Me” Mt. 7:23

“I am willing; be cleansed” Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41

”confess Me” Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8

Do not deny “Me” 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38

Do not be “ashamed of Me” Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"

“love Me” 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23?24, 28

Do not reject “Me” Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48

“He who is not with Me is against Me” Lk. 11:23

Love Me “more than” your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]

“I… have loved you” Jn. 15:9, 12

Be “worthy of Me” Mt. 10:37?38

“Come to Me” 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37

“I will give you rest” Mt. 11:28

“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” Mt. 11:30

I am “greater than the temple” “than Jonah” “than Solomon” Mt. 12:6, 41?42

I am “Lord even of the Sabbath” Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]

Thus He says keep “My commandments” 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12

“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” Jn. 15:14

“keep My word” Jn. 14:23?24

“He who is not with Me is against Me” Mt. 12:30

The angels are “His angels” Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands “His angels” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27

The kingdom is “His kingdom” Mt. 13:41 and He calls it “My kingdom” Lk. 22:30

Jesus called it “My church” Mt. 16:18 and believers are “My sheep” Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are “His elect” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27

Paul is a “vessel of Mine to bear My name” Acts 9:15

“all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine” Jn. 17:10

“My peace I give” Jn. 14:27 ”in Me you may have peace” Jn. 16:33

“My joy” should fill you Jn. 15:11

“Who do men say that I am?” Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 “who do you say that I am?” Mt. 16:15

Receive “Me” Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48

Heaven and earth will pass away but “My words” will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33

Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19

“you belong to Christ” Mk. 9:41

Hear “My sayings” and do them Lk. 6:47

Jesus has “His own glory” Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is “glorified” 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31?32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]

“He who hears you hears Me” Lk. 10:16

Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary 1x Lk. 19:37?40

Return “to Me” Lk. 22:32

Be “My disciple” Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to “be My disciple” Lk. 14:33 ”you are My disciples” Jn. 13:35

“I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit” Jn. 15:26; 16:7

The Holy Spirit “will testify of Me” Jn. 15:26

We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that “the Scriptures… testify of Me” Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]

“You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me” Jn. 15:27

Paul gives “testimony concerning Me” Acts 22:18; 23:11

“the Son gives life to whom He will” Jn. 5:21

“seek Me” Jn. 6:26

Serve “Me” Jn. 12:26

“all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” Jn. 5:23

“I am the bread of life,” “of heaven,” “of God” Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51

Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe [Jn. 6:36] him” Jn. 6:56

Drink “My blood” and eat “My flesh” Jn. 6:53?54, 56

“I will raise him up at the last day” Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection

“The world… hates Me” Jn. 7:7

“I am the light of the world” Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46

“I bear witness of Myself” 1x Jn. 8:13-14, 18

“know… Jesus Christ” for “eternal life” Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]

“the Son makes you free” Jn. 8:36

“Abraham rejoiced to see My day” Jn. 8:56; “Before Abraham was, I AM” Jn. 8:58

Of believers, Christ said, “I know them” Jn. 10:27

“I give them eternal life” Jn. 10:28

“I am the resurrection and the life” Jn. 11:25

I “will draw all peoples to Myself” Jn. 12:32

“I will… receive you to Myself” Jn. 14:3

Be “Mine” Jn. 14:24

“I am the vine” Jn. 15:5

“without Me you can do nothing” Jn. 15:5

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you” Jn. 15:16

Those who oppress Christians are “persecuting Me” Acts 9:4?5; 22:7?8; 26:14?15
“because they have not known… Me” Jn. 16:3

The Spirit “will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it” Jn. 16:14

“All things that the Father has are Mine” Jn. 16:15

“the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me” Jn. 16:27

“If I will that he remain” Jn. 21:22

“I have overcome the world” Jn. 16:33

“I am the way” Jn. 14:6

“I am… the truth” Jn. 14:6

“I am… the life” Jn. 14:6

“I will… manifest Myself” Jn. 14:21



Jesus was either a blasphemer, or He was God Himself. There are no other possibilities.
 

NWL

Active member
This post was originally posted in a response to Keypurr in the Trinity thread, but I'll use it here too, in response to you.

NWL, throughout the OT God's prophets say, "Thus saith the LORD."

Yet NOT ONCE do we see that in the NT. Instead, we see Jesus saying, "I say unto you."

Spoiler


“Follow Me” 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22

Pray and act “in My name” 18xMt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13?14; 15:16; 16:23?24, 26; Acts 9:15

“the Holy Spirit” comes “in My name” Jn. 14:26

“for My name’s sake” leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5xMt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16

Believe in the “name of the… Son” and “in the Son” 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and “in Him [Jesus]” 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31

“believe in Me” 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15?16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20

You “are sanctified by faith in Me” Acts 26:18

Live “in Me” Jn. 11:26

“come after Me” Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27

Abide “in Me” Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 “abide in Me” or else Jn. 15:6 “abide in My love” Jn. 15:9?10

“where two or three are gathered,” Jesus is “there in the midst of them” Mt. 18:20

So too: “I [Jesus, will abide] in you” Jn. 15:4?5

“know that I am He” Jn. 8:28 or “if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins” Jn. 8:24

Do things “for My sake” Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life “for My sake” 4xMt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22

“I never knew you, depart from Me” Mt. 7:23

“I am willing; be cleansed” Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41

”confess Me” Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8

Do not deny “Me” 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38

Do not be “ashamed of Me” Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"

“love Me” 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23?24, 28

Do not reject “Me” Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48

“He who is not with Me is against Me” Lk. 11:23

Love Me “more than” your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]

“I… have loved you” Jn. 15:9, 12

Be “worthy of Me” Mt. 10:37?38

“Come to Me” 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37

“I will give you rest” Mt. 11:28

“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” Mt. 11:30

I am “greater than the temple” “than Jonah” “than Solomon” Mt. 12:6, 41?42

I am “Lord even of the Sabbath” Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]

Thus He says keep “My commandments” 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12

“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” Jn. 15:14

“keep My word” Jn. 14:23?24

“He who is not with Me is against Me” Mt. 12:30

The angels are “His angels” Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands “His angels” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27

The kingdom is “His kingdom” Mt. 13:41 and He calls it “My kingdom” Lk. 22:30

Jesus called it “My church” Mt. 16:18 and believers are “My sheep” Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are “His elect” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27

Paul is a “vessel of Mine to bear My name” Acts 9:15

“all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine” Jn. 17:10

“My peace I give” Jn. 14:27 ”in Me you may have peace” Jn. 16:33

“My joy” should fill you Jn. 15:11

“Who do men say that I am?” Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 “who do you say that I am?” Mt. 16:15

Receive “Me” Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48

Heaven and earth will pass away but “My words” will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33

Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19

“you belong to Christ” Mk. 9:41

Hear “My sayings” and do them Lk. 6:47

Jesus has “His own glory” Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is “glorified” 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31?32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]

“He who hears you hears Me” Lk. 10:16

Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary 1x Lk. 19:37?40

Return “to Me” Lk. 22:32

Be “My disciple” Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to “be My disciple” Lk. 14:33 ”you are My disciples” Jn. 13:35

“I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit” Jn. 15:26; 16:7

The Holy Spirit “will testify of Me” Jn. 15:26

We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that “the Scriptures… testify of Me” Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]

“You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me” Jn. 15:27

Paul gives “testimony concerning Me” Acts 22:18; 23:11

“the Son gives life to whom He will” Jn. 5:21

“seek Me” Jn. 6:26

Serve “Me” Jn. 12:26

“all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” Jn. 5:23

“I am the bread of life,” “of heaven,” “of God” Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51

Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe [Jn. 6:36] him” Jn. 6:56

Drink “My blood” and eat “My flesh” Jn. 6:53?54, 56

“I will raise him up at the last day” Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection

“The world… hates Me” Jn. 7:7

“I am the light of the world” Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46

“I bear witness of Myself” 1x Jn. 8:13-14, 18

“know… Jesus Christ” for “eternal life” Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]

“the Son makes you free” Jn. 8:36

“Abraham rejoiced to see My day” Jn. 8:56; “Before Abraham was, I AM” Jn. 8:58

Of believers, Christ said, “I know them” Jn. 10:27

“I give them eternal life” Jn. 10:28

“I am the resurrection and the life” Jn. 11:25

I “will draw all peoples to Myself” Jn. 12:32

“I will… receive you to Myself” Jn. 14:3

Be “Mine” Jn. 14:24

“I am the vine” Jn. 15:5

“without Me you can do nothing” Jn. 15:5

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you” Jn. 15:16

Those who oppress Christians are “persecuting Me” Acts 9:4?5; 22:7?8; 26:14?15
“because they have not known… Me” Jn. 16:3

The Spirit “will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it” Jn. 16:14

“All things that the Father has are Mine” Jn. 16:15

“the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me” Jn. 16:27

“If I will that he remain” Jn. 21:22

“I have overcome the world” Jn. 16:33

“I am the way” Jn. 14:6

“I am… the truth” Jn. 14:6

“I am… the life” Jn. 14:6

“I will… manifest Myself” Jn. 14:21



Jesus was either a blasphemer, or He was God Himself. There are no other possibilities.

The prophets made known that what they spoke were YHWH's words and decress, as you yourself have already stated they said things such as "Thus saith the LORD" when giving YHWH's commands and thoughts.

You state not once do we see this in the NT, but that could not be further from the truth. Jesus made known the same things the prophets made known, that the things he taught and said were not his but came from YHWH the father. Moreover Jesus was the Father word or representative, just like the prophets of old were(representatives only). This is irrefutable as I will show in the verses below:

(John 12:49) "..For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.."

(John 14:10) "..The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.."

(John 7:16) "..Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.."

(John 8:28) "..Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.."


The reason why so many things are done through the name of Jesus is because that is what the Father has commanded since it is through Jesus we are saved by means of the Father. Things being done through Jesus name doesn't detract anything away from the Father, since Jesus passes all the glory he receives to the Father as seen in Phil 2:9-11

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

So again, the reason why things are done through Jesus is because the Father commanded it, since, it was by means of Jesus that all are saved, we worship the father through Jesus. Jesus recieves no ultimate worship or glory since he himself passes it onto the Father who is the one God (1 Cor 8:6)

Therefore your claim that Jesus would have been a blasphemer if he wasn't God by the things he said is void.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
So me being a Jehovah's witness somehow proves what? You are a trinitarian, you believe Jesus is God, does this mean that the biblical context of Rev 2:8 magically changes to mean that Jesus is God, I would think not.

The context of Rev 2:8 is proof that Jesus isn't God.

Proves that you are a polytheist and that you believe in multiple God's. I've always wanted to ask a Jehovah's Witness what give you the authority to add the indefinite article to John 1:1 It isn't there in the Greek. So when inverting the order of the sentence does it give you the authority to insert the indefinite article? Who is Jesus to you if He is not God? He is the First and the Last, God.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
The prophets made known that what they spoke were YHWH's words and decress, as you yourself have already stated they said things such as "Thus saith the LORD" when giving YHWH's commands and thoughts.

You state not once do we see this in the NT, but that could not be further from the truth. Jesus made known the same things the prophets made known, that the things he taught and said were not his but came from YHWH the father. Moreover Jesus was the Father word or representative, just like the prophets of old were(representatives only). This is irrefutable as I will show in the verses below:

(John 12:49) "..For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.."

(John 14:10) "..The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.."

(John 7:16) "..Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.."

(John 8:28) "..Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.."


The reason why so many things are done through the name of Jesus is because that is what the Father has commanded since it is through Jesus we are saved by means of the Father. Things being done through Jesus name doesn't detract anything away from the Father, since Jesus passes all the glory he receives to the Father as seen in Phil 2:9-11

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

So again, the reason why things are done through Jesus is because the Father commanded it, since, it was by means of Jesus that all are saved, we worship the father through Jesus. Jesus recieves no ultimate worship or glory since he himself passes it onto the Father who is the one God (1 Cor 8:6)

Therefore your claim that Jesus would have been a blasphemer if he wasn't God by the things he said is void.

Except Jesus bore witness of HIMSELF, and the Pharisees called Him out on it. Here is His response to them.

The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, [JESUS]“Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”[/JESUS] Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, [JESUS]“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”[/JESUS] - John 8:13-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:13-19&version=NKJV

AGAIN, Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He is God, because NO PROPHET EVER ever bore witness of himself.

Go read the verses I put in the spoiler box. Look at how, when you take all of those verses into consideration, He places the entire focus of His message on Himself.

Why?

Because HE IS THE MESSAGE.

The OT prophets spoke of Him, He spoke of Himself.

Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He's God Himself.

There are NO alternatives.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
The prophets made known that what they spoke were YHWH's words and decress, as you yourself have already stated they said things such as "Thus saith the LORD" when giving YHWH's commands and thoughts.

You state not once do we see this in the NT, but that could not be further from the truth. Jesus made known the same things the prophets made known, that the things he taught and said were not his but came from YHWH the father. Moreover Jesus was the Father word or representative, just like the prophets of old were(representatives only). This is irrefutable as I will show in the verses below:

(John 12:49) "..For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.."

(John 14:10) "..The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.."

(John 7:16) "..Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.."

(John 8:28) "..Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.."


The reason why so many things are done through the name of Jesus is because that is what the Father has commanded since it is through Jesus we are saved by means of the Father. Things being done through Jesus name doesn't detract anything away from the Father, since Jesus passes all the glory he receives to the Father as seen in Phil 2:9-11

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

So again, the reason why things are done through Jesus is because the Father commanded it, since, it was by means of Jesus that all are saved, we worship the father through Jesus. Jesus recieves no ultimate worship or glory since he himself passes it onto the Father who is the one God (1 Cor 8:6)

Therefore your claim that Jesus would have been a blasphemer if he wasn't God by the things he said is void.
Except Jesus bore witness of HIMSELF, and the Pharisees called Him out on it. Here is His response to them.

The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, [JESUS]“Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”[/JESUS] Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, [JESUS]“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”[/JESUS] - John 8:13-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:13-19&version=NKJV

AGAIN, Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He is God, because NO PROPHET EVER ever bore witness of himself.

Go read the verses I put in the spoiler box. Look at how, when you take all of those verses into consideration, He places the entire focus of His message on Himself.

Why?

Because HE IS THE MESSAGE.

The OT prophets spoke of Him, He spoke of Himself.

Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He's God Himself.

There are NO alternatives.
No response, NWL?
 

NWL

Active member
Except Jesus bore witness of HIMSELF, and the Pharisees called Him out on it. Here is His response to them.

The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, [JESUS]“Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”[/JESUS] Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, [JESUS]“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”[/JESUS] - John 8:13-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:13-19&version=NKJV

AGAIN, Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He is God, because NO PROPHET EVER ever bore witness of himself.

Why?

Because HE IS THE MESSAGE.

The OT prophets spoke of Him, He spoke of Himself.

Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He's God Himself.

There are NO alternatives.

The mistake you're making is thinking that Jesus bearing witness about himself or saying the things he said in scriptures you listed in the spoiler tab equal blasphemy, where in scripture do we find such a notion? We Don't! It's simply your wrong assumption that Jesus bearing witness of himself, by the command of the Father, equates blasphemy, it doesn't!

So unless you can find an example in scripture that show bearing witness of oneself equates equality with God, then your point is void.

Go read the verses I put in the spoiler box. Look at how, when you take all of those verses into consideration, He places the entire focus of His message on Himself.

I had a look through them when you initially messaged me. I don't get this idea that how Jesus is exactly blaspheming if not God, Jesus makes it abundantly clear in John 8 when speaking with the Jews that the Father was the one who sent him, (see John 8:16,18,26,29,42) Jesus taught that the "one who is sent [is not] greater than the one who sent him" (John 13:16).

It's clear that the fact Jesus bore witness of himself, by speaking the words of the Father, does not negate the fact that he was sent by the father, implying he was subordinate to him and simply speaking of himself by the decree of the Father.
 
Last edited:

NWL

Active member
Proves that you are a polytheist and that you believe in multiple God's. I've always wanted to ask a Jehovah's Witness what give you the authority to add the indefinite article to John 1:1 It isn't there in the Greek. So when inverting the order of the sentence does it give you the authority to insert the indefinite article?

Ha! you cleary have no understanding of the argument you're trying to make. Just to let you know I'm not here to defend the NWT nor do I believe the NWT is 100% correct, no JW does. However, the NWT translates the Greek how it reads, we have added nothing, there is NO article in the greek at the second occurrence of theos, hence the reason why the NWT translates the logos as being a god, instead of "the God" (ho theos). So your accusation that we have added anything is completely false. Again, the article "ho" (the) is in the Greek of the first usage of God, "and the word was with God (ho theos/the God), but is lacking in the second occurrence, that being, and the word was god/thoes (NO "ho/the" before the theos). In basic terms, when you have "ho theos" which means "the God", when translated literally it refers to the almighty God of the bible, when theos lacks the definite article, "ho", it does not always refer to "the God" of the bible.

A better question to ask is what gives translators the authority to translate the logos as being "God" in the second usage when it contradicts the fact he was with the God who he was?

Who is Jesus to you if He is not God? He is the First and the Last, God.

Simple, the Fathers firstborn son as outlined in scripture, (See Col 1:15).

Again, Jesus is the first and the last, but not in relation to deity.
 
Last edited:

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Ha! you cleary have no understanding of the argument you're trying to make. Just to let you know I'm not here to defend the NWT nor do I believe the NWT is 100% correct, no JW does. However, the NWT translates the Greek how it reads, we have added nothing, there is NO article in the greek at the second occurrence of theos, hence the reason why the NWT translates the logos as being a god, instead of "the God" (ho theos). So your accusation that we have added anything is completely false. Again, the article "ho" (the) is in the Greek of the first usage of God, "and the word was with God (ho theos/the God), but is lacking in the second occurrence, that being, and the word was god/thoes (NO "ho/the" before the theos). In basic terms, when you have "ho theos" which means "the God", when translated literally it refers to the almighty God of the bible, when theos lacks the definite article, "ho", it does not always refer to "the God" of the bible.

A better question to ask is what gives translators the authority to translate the logos as being "God" in the second usage when it contradicts the fact he was with the God who he was?



Simple, the Fathers firstborn son as outlined in scripture, (See Col 1:15).

Again, Jesus is the first and the last, but not in relation to deity.

Though I would post these for you from biblereasons.com

What does the Bible say?

1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.



Jesus claimed to be God.

6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.



Jesus is the Word.

8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven.

10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



I am He

12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.



First and last: There’s only one God

15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

18. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.



Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped.

19. Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

20. Matthew 28:8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.



Prayed to

21. Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.



The Trinity

22. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.



Examples

24. John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

25. 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.



Bonus

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
 

NWL

Active member
Though I would post these for you from biblereasons.com

What does the Bible say?

1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.



Jesus claimed to be God.

6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.



Jesus is the Word.

8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven.

10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



I am He

12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.



First and last: There’s only one God

15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

18. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.



Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped.

19. Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

20. Matthew 28:8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.



Prayed to

21. Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.



The Trinity

22. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.



Examples

24. John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

25. 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.



Bonus

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Thank you for the copy and paste. Just to point out to you though that your fighting scripture with scripture, which is futile. What I mean by that is instead of reasoning and explaining anything you simply throw more scriptures at me in a hope that they somehow explain things. Why not address anything I said?

Also, you don't reasonably expect me to respond to all of these do you, especially since they aren't even your words?

Which scripture or section do you think best shows that Jesus is God and I'll respond to that.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Thank you for the copy and paste. Just to point out to you though that your fighting scripture with scripture, which is futile. What I mean by that is instead of reasoning and explaining anything you simply throw more scriptures at me in a hope that they somehow explain things. Why not address anything I said?

Also, you don't reasonably expect me to respond to all of these do you, especially since they aren't even your words?

Which scripture or section do you think best shows that Jesus is God and I'll respond to that.

The First and the Last, there is only one God would be fine.
 

TOL User

BANNED
Banned
Matt 19:16-26

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God ! Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being God

Now , notice Jesus did not say, none is good but One and that is my Father, but He said that One, Being God !

Now if Jesus by this is not insinuating that He is God, then the alternative is that He was not good, seeing He just said only ONE, not Two, but ONLY ONE is good.

Now, if Jesus was not good, being that He was not the Only One Good God, then His commanding him, the young ruler, in order to be perfect, that he must go sell all his possessions, then give to the poor, and follow Him; Such an commandment exposed that the young man loved his possessions above God, which was a violation of the very first commandment, now if Jesus was not God, then the young mans refusal to obey and follow Jesus, could not be a proper standard to gauge his Love to God !

For there could not have been nothing amiss about not making such a great sacrifice as that Jesus told him, and then following Him if the One speaking was not the One God, who Only was good !

Jesus is The Only Begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Psalms 2:7 - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Exodus 33:17-20 "And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."


There are 3 that testify in Heaven.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html

The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament. In these editions the verses appear thus (we put backets around the extra words):

ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ] τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.

The King James Version, which was based upon these editions, gives the following translation:

For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus:

Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt.
 

TOL User

BANNED
Banned
John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."


Jesus = 1
Father = 2
God = 3

The (1-2-3) of The fullness of GOD.
 

TOL User

BANNED
Banned
The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
 

keypurr

Well-known member
"You're" not that I'm this particular, but with you, I know it isn't a miss of the fingers. You don't see the difference (means you're in the dark, Keypurr). You've actually said things to others, I'd said to you a couple of years ago. In a while, you'll be a Trinitarian and arguing with us about being Trinitarians. You are already doing it. You might have had a good mind in the past (in your estimation) but you are slowly becoming Triune arguing with us, as you became Arian arguing with JW's. The longer you are here, the more Trinitarian you are becoming. I've seen it.
Lon, I can never be a Trin again, I know to much.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk
 

NWL

Active member
The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

You left out the part where it clearly states Jesus saying that it was the Father whom people should worship. Next time try adding a little context.

(John 4:23, 24) "..Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth..”
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Except Jesus bore witness of HIMSELF, and the Pharisees called Him out on it. Here is His response to them.

The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, [JESUS]“Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”[/JESUS] Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, [JESUS]“You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”[/JESUS] - John 8:13-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:13-19&version=NKJV

AGAIN, Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He is God, because NO PROPHET EVER ever bore witness of himself.

Go read the verses I put in the spoiler box. Look at how, when you take all of those verses into consideration, He places the entire focus of His message on Himself.

Why?

Because HE IS THE MESSAGE.

The OT prophets spoke of Him, He spoke of Himself.

Jesus is either a blasphemer, or He's God Himself.

There are NO alternatives.
He is neither, you just do not see what Jesus said.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk
 
Top