Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of Creation, Who Was First To Be Birthed into Existence

Bright Raven

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Six "days" of various lengths, which are not specified in the account. It does not mean six twenty-four hour days. Use your minds, folks. The Bible does NOT conflict with Science in this.

Yes it does;

In our opinion, examination of the Hebrew word for “day” and the context in which it appears in Genesis will lead to the conclusion that “day” means a literal, 24-hour period of time.

The Hebrew word yom translated into the English “day” can mean more than one thing. It can refer to the 24-hour period of time that it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis (e.g., “there are 24 hours in a day”). It can refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk (e.g., “it gets pretty hot during the day but it cools down a bit at night”). And it can refer to an unspecified period of time (e.g., “back in my grandfather’s day . . .”). It is used to refer to a 24-hour period in Genesis 7:11. It is used to refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk in Genesis 1:16. And it is used to refer to an unspecified period of time in Genesis 2:4. So, what does yom mean in Genesis 1:5–2:2 when used in conjunction with ordinal numbers (i.e., the first day, the second day, the third day, the fourth day, the fifth day, the sixth day, and the seventh day)? Are these 24-hour periods or something else? Could yom as it is used here mean an unspecified period of time?

We can determine how yom should be interpreted in Genesis 1:5–2:2 by comparing that context to the word’s usage elsewhere in Scripture. The Hebrew word yom is used 2,301 times in the Old Testament. Outside of Genesis 1, yom plus a number (used 410 times) almost always indicates an ordinary day, i.e., a 24-hour period. There are a few instances where yom and a number do not imply a literal, 24-hour day. The words evening and morning together (38 times) most often indicate an ordinary day. The exact construction of evening, then morning, along with yom is only seen outside of Genesis 1 in one verse. This is Daniel 8:26, which clearly implies a long period of time.

All in all, the context in which the word yom is used in Genesis 1:5–2:2, describing each day as “the evening and the morning,” seems to suggest that the author of Genesis meant 24-hour periods. This was the standard interpretation of the days of Genesis 1:5–2:2 for most of Christian history. At the same time, there were early church fathers, such as Augustine, who noted that the vague nature of the “days” of Genesis could well suggest a non-literal interpretation.

Then, in the 1800s, a paradigm shift occurred within the scientific community. This was mostly driven by hostility to religion and an effort to re-interpret observations in ways contrary to the Bible. This caused a rift in the scientific community. One side claimed that only atheism, as well as specific ideas such as an old earth and naturalistic evolution, was compatible with science. The other side, in response, attempted to denounce atheism and any possible old-earth interpretations.

The truth is that both young-earth and old-earth interpretations rely upon certain assumptions. Sincere believers debate the meaning of yom in the creation account because a case can be made on both sides. This does not diminish the importance of what Genesis teaches, regardless of whether or not a person accepts young-earth creationism.

For instance, according to Exodus 20:9–11, God used the six creation days of Genesis as a model for man’s workweek: work six days, rest one. Apparently, He had us in mind even before He made us (on the sixth day) and wanted to provide an example for us to follow. Certainly God could have used six discrete 24-hour days. And He could have created everything using a process of long time periods. Our view, based on our interpretation of the Bible, is that six literal days is the most likely interpretation of the Genesis account.

From gotquestions.org
 

Lazy afternoon

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In scripture we see various meanings to the term 'firstborn'. It can mean the person is the first child in a family. It can also be a title of preeminence, as it was with David. He was not the first child, but in Psalm 89, God called him firstborn. (Also see Jer. 31:9 and Gen. 41:51,52). Yes... Jesus has preeminence of all creation since He is the Creator. See Col. 1:15

That is not the reason--

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

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Not to mention that saying the Son was created goes against scripture that says the Son was both with GOD and was GOD.

No.

The word was God and with God.

Jesus is the word made flesh.

That was a process begun with His birth and continued until-

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And it also goes against scripture that says the Son was the creator of all things.
One cannot create all things and be the first thing created.

Sceipture doesn't say the Son created all things.

The KJV was made by trintarians to please the existing trinitarian churches under a trintarian King.

Scripture says --

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

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But these three are not in the same sequence, for neither of these three are siblings, and by you just stating that you make yourself obvious that you don't actually know what you're talking about, what do people of the world call it? "talking out of your butt?" As such, these scriptures do not disprove that "Jesus Christ is the firstborn of creation", meaning the first to be born of the one sequence of all created beings.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren and this verse says His brethren are conformed to the image of the first born son.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

LA
 
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Lazy afternoon

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What a moron, seriously :rolleyes:

The Scriptures have been around since the first centuries- in the time which the Trinity was realized.

They didn't just make it up- YOU simply make up non-trinitarian nonsense.

'Firstborn' and 'eternally begotten' are not incompatible, you just have no depth to perceive Jesus' Deity- you're as useful as a dictionary deprived of spirit and context, good for words, bad for God :wave2:

May God have mercy on your soul.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
 

Lazy afternoon

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Now THAT is what is losing me here. How can you read what I have posted thus far and still say that Jesus is God? Where does it say that Jesus "is appointed to be God by God"???

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

Lazy afternoon

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You are stretching sensibility to the breaking point. "First-born" does NOT merely mean "preeminence."

It is exactly what it says. To be "born" means to "come into existence," to BEGIN LIFE. COLOSSIANS 1:15 states it very clearly. You are remiss to try and twist that scripture around to mean something it doesn't say.

Israel, Ephraim and David were not referred to as "first-born OF CREATION." If they had been referred to as that, we would have to understand that they were being called the first to be created. Thankfully we have no such problem. It is only Jesus who is called the first-born of CREATION.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him (The Father) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him,(The Father) and for him:
Col 1:17 And he (the Father) is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he (the Son)is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him (the Son)should all fulness dwell;


LA
 

jsanford108

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How can you preach as you do when you don't understand what being "one" with God is? You ASSUME that it means that God and Jesus are the same. That is an ERRONEOUS teaching. To see what being "one" means, all we have to do is go to JOHN 17:20-23. There Jesus prays to his Father that his disciples will all be "one" with him and the Father. Does that mean that the disciples are also God???

"...that they [the disciples] may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us....The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one."


Explain THAT. How can the disciples be "one" with Jesus and the Father if it means that to be "one" means to be the same person? Do you see how stupid that teaching is, that Jesus and the Father are the same? If they are, then so are the disciples with them!

GOD is eternal, but the scriptures do not say that the Son is eternal, because the Son is not the same as God.

There is NO PROOF FOR THE TRINITY IN JOHN 1:1. It has been explained over and over, in minute detail, and yet it is just IGNORED! The rendering of John 1:1 as "and the word was a god" was accepted many centuries ago, and proof of it can be seen in Coptic copies of the Scriptures over 1700 years ago. You people here show a pathetic lack of understanding of Greek rules of translation. Don't accept anybody's teaching without researching it!

Christ is not "fully God." He said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) Jesus is "divine" but not God. "Divine" does not mean equal to God.

Jesus also called the Father "MY GOD" (John 20:17) How does God HAVE a God? Wake up.

Easy there. I did say that my reasoning was not to offend or defend Trinitarian or Non-Trinitarian doctrine. Just pointing out the flaws of the article. If you want such a debate, we can hold one. But I assure you, I will bring Biblical, historical, and "secular" sources to the argument. And above all those, a logical perspective.

Is that what you wish to discuss?


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Lon

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I have shown through scripture that this is not so.
Er, no you didn't, you linked to another page.

You WILL honor the Son 'just as' the Father, willingly or forced.

Then demonstrate it in scripture.
We try not to put out arian/unit-arian fires all over TOL. Such is a waste of our time. There are plenty of threads on here that discuss the triune view that you are free to read. Micah 5:2 John 1:15 Hebrews 7:3; 13:8
 

6days

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Reply to post #10: blah blah blah blah,,,same tired old clap-trap. same old lame scriptures ... untruthful translations... That swill...mindless lemmings ... worthless and dangerous.... many lies,,,
Col. 4:6 New World 'translation' "Let your words always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person."
 

Epoisses

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This study explains shows, contrary to popular teaching, the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ was created. This study also explains, that in spite of him being created, why he is still called God, why he existed in the beginning, and how he was able to create the world. The study can be found here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/0...n-who-was-first-to-be-birthed-into-existence/ . Let us commence a discussion on this study in this thread.

Scripture demonstrates that the devil spawned you cgviagra. Your truth probably goes over well in the 3rd world country you are from.
 

6days

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Scripture demonstrates that the devil spawned you cgviagra. Your truth probably goes over well in the 3rd world country you are from.

Wow.... Shame on you. I don't know much about Cgavira but he or she might be a seeker who has recieved very bad teaching. I don't think we will win many to Jeaus with comments like yours.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
This study explains shows, contrary to popular teaching, the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ was created. This study also explains, that in spite of him being created, why he is still called God, why he existed in the beginning, and how he was able to create the world. The study can be found here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/0...n-who-was-first-to-be-birthed-into-existence/ . Let us commence a discussion on this study in this thread.

Part right, Jesus did not exist at the creation. But the logos did.
Consider the express image of a spirit would be a spirit.
 

keypurr

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We see in scripture that "firstborn" is sometimes used as a title. You have examples where it was used on people who were not firstborn biologically in a family.

Also... as [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] pointed out, Jesus could not have created Himself... For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Where does it say JESUS created all?

Your confusing Jesus with the logos.
 

keypurr

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No doofus, the Son cannot be created if He is the one that created all things created.

Ephesians 3:9 KJV
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.





Revelation 4:11 KJV
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Revelation 10:6 KJV
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


Exodus 20:11 KJV
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You have been chained to the traditions of the churches. Both Jesus and the logos are creations. you fail to see the differences between the two.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

ALL CREATURES ARE CREATIONS. This verse seems to be skipped by most.


Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS. CAN YOU NAME ONE THAT IS NOT CREATED?

The express image of God is a spirit, not a man. God is a spirit. Think friend.
 
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