Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of Creation, Who Was First To Be Birthed into Existence

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cgaviria

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Tambora said:
No doofus, the Son cannot be created if He is the one that created all things created.

Ephesians 3:9 KJV
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.





Revelation 4:11 KJV
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Revelation 10:6 KJV
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


Exodus 20:11 KJV
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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He didn't create "all things", he created "all", meaning all living beings. "Things" is not part of the original text for the word "panta", which means "all", it was added by translators who think as you do. The correct rendering of those scriptures should be:

because by him were created – all in the heavens and upon the earth; the visible, and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities – all by him and for him were created. (Colossians 1:16 [INTERLINEARIZED])*

Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1-16.htm

Meaning all living beings in the heavens and on earth.

All through him emerged, and without him emerged not even one that has emerged. (John 1:3 [INTERLINEARIZED])

Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-3.htm

Also meaning all living beings in the heavens and on earth.

And if you look at the Genesis account, all life came through the commands Jesus Christ made in the beginning.
 
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cgaviria

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Tambora said:
Scripture says all things created (ie. all of creation) was created by Him.
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No it does not, and I just gave you the interlinear links for you to see for yourself. And not only that, in the Genesis account you can also see for yourself that the earth already existed before Jesus Christ began speaking. That is because he did not create "all things". It was the Father who first brought the earth into existence by his power, and then through Jesus Christ he created the world in wisdom. There is a distinction between the "earth" and the "world".
 
6days

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cgavira said:
in the Genesis account you can also see for yourself that the earth already existed before Jesus Christ began speaking.
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Scripture tells us that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.*
 
KingdomRose

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cgaviria said:
This study explains shows, contrary to popular teaching, the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ was created. This study also explains, that in spite of him being created, why he is still called God, why he existed in the beginning, and how he was able to create the world. The study can be found here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/0...n-who-was-first-to-be-birthed-into-existence/ . Let us commence a discussion on this study in this thread.
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I agree that Jesus was the first creation by God, but I do not agree that he should still be referred to as "God." How could "God" be created? The only reason that people ignore scriptures (like Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14) that show that Jesus was the first to be brought into existence, is because they have to prop up their belief in the Trinity at any cost.
 
KingdomRose

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Tambora said:
No it does not.


The Son is called 'firstborn' because it can mean 'preeminence'.
Just as Israel [Ex 4:22] and Ephraim [Jer 31:9], and David [Ps 89:27] were called 'firstborn'.
None of those 3 were the 1st in sequence of birth, so it is obvious that scripture does NOT show us that 'firstborn' has to always carry the connotation of being 'first' in sequence as in 1, 2, 3.
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You are stretching sensibility to the breaking point. "First-born" does NOT merely mean "preeminence."

It is exactly what it says. To be "born" means to "come into existence," to BEGIN LIFE. COLOSSIANS 1:15 states it very clearly. You are remiss to try and twist that scripture around to mean something it doesn't say.

Israel, Ephraim and David were not referred to as "first-born OF CREATION." If they had been referred to as that, we would have to understand that they were being called the first to be created. Thankfully we have no such problem. It is only Jesus who is called the first-born of CREATION.
 
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KingdomRose said:
You are stretching sensibility to the breaking point. "First-born" does NOT merely mean "preeminence."

It is exactly what it says. To be "born" means to "come into existence," to BEGIN LIFE. COLOSSIANS 1:15 states it very clearly. You are remiss to try and twist that scripture around to mean something it doesn't say.
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You're mistaken. Get into the proper theology and you will have understanding.
 
Bright Raven

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cgaviria said:
No it does not, and I just gave you the interlinear links for you to see for yourself. And not only that, in the Genesis account you can also see for yourself that the earth already existed before Jesus Christ began speaking. That is because he did not create "all things". It was the Father who first brought the earth into existence by his power, and then through Jesus Christ he created the world in wisdom. There is a distinction between the "earth" and the "world".
Click to expand...

The Bible says all things were created by and for Him;

Colossians 1:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Don't need an interlinear for that eh.
 
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Bright Raven said:
The Bible says all things were created by and for Him;

Colossians 1:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Don't need an interlinear for that eh.
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But in Genesis we read that this was not so, for Jesus did not speak the earth into existence, for the Father himself created the earth, and then Jesus Christ spoke to fill the earth, with exactly what is described in Colossians. And from looking at the interlinear, "things" is added by translators, as such, "all" means all life. Whoever wants disbelieve this has no understanding of what happened in the beginning.


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KingdomRose

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Reply to post #10: blah blah blah blah

All of what this poster said there has been refuted many times before, yet he still throws out the same tired old clap-trap. He, and the others who "thank" him, resort to the same old lame scriptures that have been shown by scholars to be untruthful translations. Paul, for example, NEVER calls Jesus "our great God." We have to do our homework and look at other versions and other opinions besides our clergyman's. That swill perpetrated by Jerry Shugart and agreed to by the great group of mindless lemmings that are evident here, is worthless and dangerous.

THINK, people! Don't just follow along because you either insist on just being right OR you want to root for "your team." There are many lies going on here.

It stands to reason that the majority of posters here would be supporting the ways of "the BROAD road leading off into destruction...and MANY are on it" (Matthew 7:13)
 
KingdomRose

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6days said:
Rather than get your info from heretical websites... you should use God's Word.
Psalm 2:7 New World Translation "Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father"
Heb. 1:5 New World Translation " to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?
(God's Word specifically says the angels were created yet God does not say "You are my son" to angels)
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So what? Your point is?
 
Bright Raven

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cgaviria said:
But in Genesis we read that this was not so, for Jesus did not speak the earth into existence, for the Father himself created the earth, and then Jesus Christ spoke to fill the earth, with exactly what is described in Colossians. And from looking at the interlinear, "things" is added by translators, as such, "all" means all life. Whoever wants disbelieve this has no understanding of what happened in the beginning.


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I do not care how you read Genesis. It is quite obvious from scripture that Jesus is the creator of all things. Show me something that challenges the Colossians passage.
 
KingdomRose

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jsanford108 said:
I am in strong disagreement with the article. While the theory put forth appears to work, it actually fails. Scripture, as many responses have pointed out, directly contradicts the conclusion and theory put forth by the article.

Also, from a Trinitarian standpoint (which I know not all ascribe to), it is also impossible. Christ, being the Son of God, and One With God, cannot be created, logically. God is eternal. So, His Son, Alpha and Omega, likewise, must be eternal.

From a simply Christian standpoint, Christ could not have been created, because He was "the Word in flesh." And "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. And the Word was God." (Trinity proof again, apologies Non-Trinitarians, this was only meant to illustrate a "begotten not made" view). The Word was never created, because it was God. If Christ is the Word in flesh, His "flesh" would have been technically created (via Mary), but Christ as a whole could not have been created. For He is fully God and fully man. If one is fully God, then it is impossible to have been created since one cannot create themselves.


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How can you preach as you do when you don't understand what being "one" with God is? You ASSUME that it means that God and Jesus are the same. That is an ERRONEOUS teaching. To see what being "one" means, all we have to do is go to JOHN 17:20-23. There Jesus prays to his Father that his disciples will all be "one" with him and the Father. Does that mean that the disciples are also God???

"...that they [the disciples] may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us....The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one."


Explain THAT. How can the disciples be "one" with Jesus and the Father if it means that to be "one" means to be the same person? Do you see how stupid that teaching is, that Jesus and the Father are the same? If they are, then so are the disciples with them!

GOD is eternal, but the scriptures do not say that the Son is eternal, because the Son is not the same as God.

There is NO PROOF FOR THE TRINITY IN JOHN 1:1. It has been explained over and over, in minute detail, and yet it is just IGNORED! The rendering of John 1:1 as "and the word was a god" was accepted many centuries ago, and proof of it can be seen in Coptic copies of the Scriptures over 1700 years ago. You people here show a pathetic lack of understanding of Greek rules of translation. Don't accept anybody's teaching without researching it!

Christ is not "fully God." He said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) Jesus is "divine" but not God. "Divine" does not mean equal to God.

Jesus also called the Father "MY GOD" (John 20:17) How does God HAVE a God? Wake up.
 
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cgaviria

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Bright Raven said:
If you understood that Jesus is God you would have no problem with the interpretation. But since you are mistaken, you do.
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When have I said Jesus is not God? I said he is not uncreated, but that he is God, indeed he is, because he appointed to be God by God, for Jesus is the very representation of God in creation.


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KingdomRose

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6days said:
Scripture tells us that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.*
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Six "days" of various lengths, which are not specified in the account. It does not mean six twenty-four hour days. Use your minds, folks. The Bible does NOT conflict with Science in this.
 
KingdomRose

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cgaviria said:
When have I said Jesus is not God? I said he is not uncreated, but that he is God, indeed he is, because he appointed to be God by God, for Jesus is the very representation of God in creation.


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Now THAT is what is losing me here. How can you read what I have posted thus far and still say that Jesus is God? Where does it say that Jesus "is appointed to be God by God"???
 
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