James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

[Nang]

Right.
Which means that God does have limits.

But scripture also says that all things are possible for God to do.

Mark 14
(36) And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
​

If God has limits as to His power, then it should also be considered if He has limits concerning omnipresence and omniscience.

I literally cringe when I read views such as this . . .

Such thoughts and speculations about Almighty God are SO blasphemous.

IMO, it evidences a lack of reverent fear of God.

 

[Stripe]

Oh so God doesn't have free will, ok.

Can you fly?

 

[Tambora]

Illogical questions do not mean there is no such thing as omnipotence.
First, a privation, is not a lack. God 'cannot' deny Himself. That is not a lack in omnipotence.


WHAT could limit God? Anything? If it does, He is no longer God but is subject to a law/rule/power greater than Himself.

Think with me for a moment: Your WHOLE logic and reasoning concepts are NECESSARILY finite. If you are finite, you cannot comprehend ANYTHING that could 'limit' or constrain God. Can't even THINK of it. Do you understand? This is why Omnipotence fits with His infinite. There is NOTHING outside of God. If there is NOTHING outside of God, then NOTHING can constrain Him. See?

If that doesn't suffice: Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty (all -mighty --Omni - "all" potent - "powerful" see my sig also)."
Genesis 17:1 2nd Corinthians 6:18 Revelation 11:17 Revelation 15:3 Revelation 16:7 Revelation 16:14 Revelation 19:6 Revelation 19:15 Revelation 21:22

In our Almighty God,

-Lon

When scripture says that God cannot deny Himself, is that a limit to what God is able do?
When scripture says that God cannot lie, is that a limit to what God is able to do?

 

[Tambora]

Right.
Which means that God does have limits.

But scripture also says that all things are possible for God to do.

Mark 14
(36) And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
​

If God has limits as to His power, then it should also be considered if He has limits concerning omnipresence and omniscience.

I literally cringe when I read views such as this . . .

Such thoughts and speculations about Almighty God are SO blasphemous.

IMO, it evidences a lack of reverent fear of God.

Take it up with scripture.

We have scripture that says all things are possible.
We have scripture that says there are things that are impossible.

 

[Lighthouse]

You will have to circle it in red and write the correction for me to see it.

The final question.

"Was it a risk God took, that the godhead might come undone?"

I would answer, "No," because God the father had no need to doubt that Jesus would betray Him.

Don't you mean He had no need to doubt that Jesus would not betray Him?

There is only so much a finite creature 'can' do so God being 'infinite' can and does know them. I'm not sure where exactly that falls into the discussion but I appreciate your agreement on His nature and Character here on point. :up:

It was a good debate. Points? I'm biased.

God can and does know what?

I like James White's closing statement. Open theism leaves us with uncertainty having a god who could turn evil in 5 minutes or probably already has long before creation and is just deceiving us. This fact alone reduces open theism to absurdity.

Because the OV claims God's character is immutable? Oh, wait, no it doesn't.

Your straw man has no brain.

Here is a question and answer thread to Lighthouse many months ago. :dizzy:

Maybe one of these days Lighthouse will answer the guarantee question. In the meantime, the debate was great because James was able to ask YES/NO questions and get a direct response. Trying to get one here is.....well....not going to happen.

I called you an idiot because you wrongly argued that God cannot know for certain some of the future and not know other aspects. Your argument is a non sequitur and a false dichotomy.

There is a guarantee that all will work out in the end as God desires, except that not all will come to repentance as he desires, and that is guaranteed because we already know such to be the case.

The OV does not argue that nothing is set in stone.

Did Jesus live a sinless life because He was incapable of sinning or because He chose not to sin?

Consider the following analogy (I understand analogies aren't perfect and fall apart when pressed far enough):

A man not murdering his wife is a good thing. But is it good if he doesn't murder his wife because he chooses not to or because he is locked up in a prison cell and is unable to. Which husband is the "good" husband?

The guy who never entertains the idea...

 

[Lighthouse]

Take it up with scripture.

We have scripture that says all things are possible.
We have scripture that says there are things that are impossible.

It is odd to me that Calvinists argue that God can do anything, and then say He cannot limit Himself.

 

[Lon]

If you really believed that both righteousness and wickedness glorifies God, then why do you get upset when wickedness happens?

Of course not.
Things only turn out good for those that love God, because they are the ones that get eternal life.

Yes, so I get upset with sin, but not with anything God does. That was the point.

Things don't turn out good for those that don't love God.

Yes, also what I was saying. I'm upset about what 'man' does, not about what God does.

Because not all glorifies God.

Also agree, but you are making the same points I would have said had I simply addressed your question. IOW, you are answering for me why I get upset at sin in the world (and thanks).

Same to you.

There was a method to my madness. I'm upset at sin because it is what man does. I'm not upset with God because all He has done is righteous.

Originally, the post you cited wasn't about that. It was about libertarian freewill and I was saying we don't have it. I think you were asking a different question about the verses. That God has a right over His creation. I'm not sure 'why' you asked your question because I didn't see where it was coming from so asked mine to get you to somewhat answer so that I might see where it came in. Still not quite seeing it, but that's okay.
In Him,

Lon

 

[Lon]

It is odd to me that Calvinists argue that God can do anything, and then say He cannot limit Himself.

Can you stop Smelling? :nono: Why? It is in your nature to smell. You cannot stop. It isn't an inability, it is rather the opposite, using your ability, and with God it is the same. It is like asking if God could be non-existent, and then answering "If He wanted to." :nono:

(not just Calvinists)

 

[Nang]

It is odd to me that Calvinists argue that God can do anything, and then say He cannot limit Himself.

That is because God is infinite (unlimited) in His being.

It is an either/or truth.

Either God is infinite/ or He is not God.

You can go through the whole list of divine attributes and say the same, e.g. . . .

Either God is love/ or He is not God.

Either God is light/ or He is not God.

Either God is sovereign/ or He is not God.

Either God is immutable/ or He is not God.

And so on . . .

 

[Nimrod]

It is odd to me that Calvinists argue that God can do anything, and then say He cannot limit Himself.

Can God make a triangle a square? Of course not.

That is a logical question. Probably has nothing to do with your statement.

 

[Lon]

God can and does know what?

You were talking about his immutable (unchanging) knowledge.

I was saying because God is 'infinite' and we are finite, He can have unchanging knowledge of future actions with your choices being your own, simply because you are a finite individual.

Perhaps an analogy: I can remember about 14 numbers, in a row, from memory, and repeat them after they've been said to me and I can repeat about 11 or so (I quit on this portion of the logic test that day) backwards. That's pretty good, but it is finite (limitation), because I am finite (limited). God isn't limited, thus knows all things. The Arminian would call this a definite knowledge of all possibilities, even knowing which one you'd choose. The Calvinist believes it is more definite, that we are not just predictable, but definite in all our choices and He knows them.

I think you realized that, I was just saying that God can know, definitely, and it doesn't mean you didn't have a choice, just that it was known. I think we had this conversation over in the summit clock thread or like, before so we don't have to go further reinventing that wheel if not prefered.

In Him,

-Lon

 

[Tambora]

Can you stop Smelling? :nono: Why? It is in your nature to smell. You cannot stop. It isn't an inability, it is rather the opposite, using your ability, and with God it is the same. It is like asking if God could be non-existent, and then answering "If He wanted to." :nono:

(not just Calvinists)

Which would mean that God's nature has limits.

And that the words "omnipotent, omnipresence, and omniscience" may not be true descriptions of the nature of God.

God's power could only do what is possible within His nature.

Right?

 

[Tambora]

You were talking about his immutable (unchanging) knowledge.

I was saying because God is 'infinite' and we are finite, He can have unchanging knowledge of future actions with your choices being your own, simply because you are a finite individual.

Perhaps an analogy: I can remember about 14 numbers, in a row, from memory, and repeat them after they've been said to me and I can repeat about 11 or so (I quit on this portion of the logic test that day) backwards. That's pretty good, but it is finite (limitation), because I am finite (limited). God isn't limited, thus knows all things. The Arminian would call this a definite knowledge of all possibilities, even knowing which one you'd choose. The Calvinist believes it is more definite, that we are not just predictable, but definite in all our choices and He knows them.

I think you realized that, I was just saying that God can know, definitely, and it doesn't mean you didn't have a choice, just that it was known. I think we had this conversation over in the summit clock thread or like, before so we don't have to go further reinventing that wheel if not prefered.

In Him,

-Lon

We could go in circles on this one!

Did God know He was going to make a choice of the elect before He made the choice of the elect?

 

[DOCTA4me]

In this video, White argues that the Son not knowing the day or the hour in Matthew 24:36 was actually a "veiling" rather than a "setting aside" of His Godly attributes. He then ends his soliloquy this way -- "because the question is not about the meaning of the text but about the application to the doctrine, it must be applied to the doctrine appropriately." White is clearly stating that he interprets scripture according to his own doctrine --
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2012/02/nor_the_son_matthew_2436_and_m.php

 

[Lighthouse]

Can you stop Smelling? :nono: Why? It is in your nature to smell. You cannot stop. It isn't an inability, it is rather the opposite, using your ability, and with God it is the same. It is like asking if God could be non-existent, and then answering "If He wanted to." :nono:

(not just Calvinists)

Actually I could stop smelling if I waned to. But not simply by willing it as God does with His wants. And that's because I'm not God. So, you fail.

Can God make a triangle a square? Of course not.

That is a logical question. Probably has nothing to do with your statement.

In the way you worded it the answer would be, "yes." God could turn a triangle into a square.

What you should ask is if He could make it both at the same time. But I'm willing to bet that you don't know why He couldn't.

You were talking about his immutable (unchanging) knowledge.

No I wasn't.:nono:

I was saying because God is 'infinite' and we are finite, He can have unchanging knowledge of future actions with your choices being your own, simply because you are a finite individual.

My finiteness has nothing to do with the nature of time. Nor does anyone's.

The future hasn't happened yet. So saying god knows it is like saying God exists in Wonderland, which isn't real and therefore doesn't exist.

Perhaps an analogy: I can remember about 14 numbers, in a row, from memory, and repeat them after they've been said to me and I can repeat about 11 or so (I quit on this portion of the logic test that day) backwards. That's pretty good, but it is finite (limitation), because I am finite (limited). God isn't limited, thus knows all things. The Arminian would call this a definite knowledge of all possibilities, even knowing which one you'd choose. The Calvinist believes it is more definite, that we are not just predictable, but definite in all our choices and He knows them.

You call God omnipresent, so I ask you does God exist outside the confines of reality?

I think you realized that, I was just saying that God can know, definitely, and it doesn't mean you didn't have a choice, just that it was known. I think we had this conversation over in the summit clock thread or like, before so we don't have to go further reinventing that wheel if not prefered.

For those who don't understand the fail in logic here; if it is impossible to choose other than what was known from eternity past then there is no choice.

 

[Nang]

For those who don't understand the fail in logic here; if it is impossible to choose other than what was known from eternity past then there is no choice.

No kidding! :doh:

By George, I think you have finally caught on!

 

[Nimrod]

Did God know He was going to make a choice of the elect before He made the choice of the elect?

Keyword here is "before". That is a time reference. God is outside time. When speaking of things outside time, it become a logical question.

 

[Lon]

Which would mean that God's nature has limits.

:nono: To not be able to stop smelling is not a limitation, it is a freedom to smell the roses.

And that the words "omnipotent, omnipresence, and omniscience" may not be true descriptions of the nature of God.

Let me ask, is God all to you? I mean, is He your everything? I think that's an important question. I've addressed scripture attributing omni's to Him, I'm just asking what you in particular attribute to Him. Is He your all in all? What do you need besides Him?

God's power could only do what is possible within His nature.

Right?

Yes, it is incorrect to call it a restriction. Why? Because there is nothing, not-a-thing, outside of God. If He isn't all of something, is constrained by something, that other is on par with God dictating, to God, whom He should be. It isn't so much that God cannot lie, other than to explain to men, accustomed to lies, that God will not. Rather it is that He 'is' true. Being something is no restriction. Sin is a privation, a lack of something, not a something that exists beside God. The other things, like a rock He cannot pick up, are logical errors rather than yes/no questions.

-Lon

 

[Lon]

Actually I could stop smelling if I waned to. But not simply by willing it as God does with His wants. And that's because I'm not God. So, you fail.

I suppose there are chemicals, but I was talking about will. You can temporarily interrupt smelling, cannot stop it by will alone.

But this is getting caught up in what isn't important. The point I was making was that just because you cannot do something does not mean it is a lack. If you are the strongest man in the world, and cannot lift a building, it is no lack in you being the strongest man in the world. IOW, God is all, there is nothing beside Him, only what He has created. That He cannot lie, is no lack. It isn't a limitation. That is where analogy was headed. Sorry I lost you on it, it wasn't intended.

My finiteness has nothing to do with the nature of time. Nor does anyone's.

I rather said that God who is infinite, comprehends fully what is finite. All His creation is finite.

The future hasn't happened yet. So saying god knows it is like saying God exists in Wonderland, which isn't real and therefore doesn't exist.

:nono: That's a strawman. John went to heaven in the future and saw all the events as they will happen, when they were happening. It is a weird way to say it, but this is exactly what happened. He met and talked to a future elder there. I've addressed this at length in one of the OT threads.

You call God omnipresent, so I ask you does God exist outside the confines of reality?

Whose? Your's or His? John visited God's reality in a future event and interacted there in the future. For me, I'm very uncomfortable saying God cannot do exceedingly abundantly more than I (a mere finite man) can think or possibly imagine (see sig scripture).

For those who don't understand the fail in logic here; if it is impossible to choose other than what was known from eternity past then there is no choice.

I gave this in one of the time threads awhile ago and believe I talked with either Muzman or Patman about this in one of the OT threads.

Let's look at logic a moment: If I, a finite man, obtained an almanac from the future, and saw that you wore a red shirt today, I have definite foreknowledge BUT, had nothing to do with your choice and you chose it. IOW, I cannot negate your free-choice simply because I know you will do it. I know without doubt, two of my children will always want Chocolate ice cream and one will want vanilla. It never changes BUT my knowledge of that does not mean they didn't have a choice, just that I surely knew which they were going to choose. I assert that knowing something does not mean you had no choice.

 

[Stripe]

Don't you mean He had no need to doubt that Jesus would not betray Him?

Ah. Yes.

Thanks.