James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

Jay Walk

New member
:AMR: You believe God made you to checkmate Him?

No, you believe we by nature checkmate God with our free will. You are the one that asserts God can't do anything that violates our free will. He is a slave and powerless to our free will. That is the essence of open theism.

I don't think you have any idea what I believe, nor any serious interest in finding out. :idunno:

I don't know what you believe, but Enyart is an open theist hero so I just assumed you agree with him when he says God can be evil. My point still stands, you are claiming God doesn't have a choice in the matter concerning turning evil. So what is it, does God have complete libertarian free will as open theists assert or not being forced to act a certain way without a choice?
 

Jay Walk

New member
Besides getting dismantled by the Bible, open theism falls apart from philosophical problems that atheists usually bring up:

Problem of Evil

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Open theism falls on the first horn making their god not omnipotent.

Euthyphro dilemma

Is the good loved by the gods because it is good, or is it good because it is loved by the gods?"

Open theism falls on the second horn lacking an objective grounding for morality. This makes open theism drown in subjectivity where God can change a moral law any second if he wanted to.

Omnipotence paradox

Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?

Its sad open theism can't escape such a foolish question. Open theist believe yes god can create a rock too heavy to lift (Violates Laws of Logic)

Time paradox

Open theism believes god is infinite within time. This leads to absurdities such as Hilbert's hotel and an infinite regression. One example is the moon orbiting the earth fast and the earth orbiting the sun slower. Lets say this has been going on for infinity. Does the earth or moon have more revolutions? The answer would be both are equal! They both would have made an infinite amount of revolutions an absurdity.

Like atheism, open theism fails to provide the necessary preconditions for intelligibility. They have no response or refutation to objections from atheists and their worldview is reduced to absurdity just like the atheists. This is what we expect from a non-biblical changing/uncertain god who can't make sense of absolute and unchanging Laws of Logic, morality, and uniformity of nature.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Here is the closing remarks from James White that I found in YouTube.

James White Closing Remarks

For the record, I do not agree with Enyart's view that the existence, death and resurrection of Christ was a contingency.

I do however appreciate his consistency on the matter.

I have explained my view a number of times in various soteriological discussions on TOL and don't intend to repeat it here. I might include it in my Big Picture thread at some point.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No, you believe we by nature checkmate God with our free will.
Here is how a rational discussion works: You take something the other guy has said and you explain why you disagree. Arguments from consequence play no part in a rational discourse.

You are the one that asserts God can't do anything that violates our free will.
"Free will" is a tautology. If it is not free, it is not a will. God cannot violate our will, that would make our actions His will.

He is a slave and powerless to our free will. That is the essence of open theism.
Nope. He is mighty and able to work despite the array of wills opposed to Him.

Who is more powerful: a man who builds robots that do exactly as they are programmed, or a man who commands an army to victory?

I don't know what you believe
Strange. You just got off a long rant all about what I supposedly believe. :idunno:

Enyart is an open theist hero so I just assumed you agree with him when he says God can be evil.
He does not believe God can be evil. Making things up for people to believe is not part of a rational discussion.

You are claiming God doesn't have a choice in the matter concerning turning evil. So what is it, does God have complete libertarian free will as open theists assert or not being forced to act a certain way without a choice?
:AMR: Can you ask this again in English?
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You don't believe this?
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

That sounds like absolute sovereignty in control to me.

Sovereignty and control are two different things. You mix these up and are not clear in your own mind so I don't see I can even begin to answer you. I have told you many times before that sovereignty and total control are not the same thing and yet you keep repeating that we are the same on this issue. WE AREN'T. Learn it. Your problem, and that of many Calvinists, is that when the scripture tells us that God is sovereign, this is not good enough for you. The God of the Bible is not good enough for you that you have to go further by asserting that God is in total control of everything. And then, to cover up the fact that you are exaggerating what the Bible says you call this idea of total control sovereignty anyway. And so you distort language itself in order to bolster your false theology.

:nono: Let's go back up a moment. I gave scriptures that say God is in Control.
Actually you didn't. I read those scriptures and I didn't see the words 'God is in absolute control'. We can do nothing without food and water. But that doesn't mean that food and water are in control of us.

How much isn't important at the moment.
Yes, it is. As I have told you before.
Learn it.

Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it?????

What is important is the extent our theologies are alike, and they are OR you have God totally separate from His creation. If He interacts...at all...you have Him in partial control answering prayer that necessarily has Him making choices FOR the one you are praying for. It has Him involved and making plans to ensure men and women come to Him through His Son. So we are both arguing over the amount of control at that point, but such puts both of us using exactly (or near) the same axiom, in this case why attrocity happens. "God didn't know" would mean He isn't involved, isn't all knowing of even past and present, and cannot read minds, isn't omnipotent but instead has limited Himself and is not involved with man and his/their decisions. That means you point at a Calvinist, all the while sweeping these leavings under the rug when someone isn't looking (thus scapegoating, misdirection).
Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it?????

I've said this too, before and will repeat it: The only difference between us on this particular between knowledge and foreknowledge.
Calvinism and open theism are different in many ways. They are fundamentally different, they are fundamentally opposed. Open theism is not a variation of Calvinism. It is not a variation of Arminianism either. It seems to me that one of your problems is you think open theism is like Arminianism: you have had an experience of open theism in the past that has been focused on only the one idea of foreknowledge. You have yet to understand how radically different it is from both Arminianism and Calvinism and hence why both Arminianism and Calvinism are so radically wrong.

Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it????? Or will you continue to misrepresent?

You can say foreknowledge then 'controlled' it but such does not erase the other. If there are two guys, one knows before hand, and one learns at the time and neither of them try to stop it, they are both guilty by association (same or close enough axiom).
The sovereign Lord is under no obligation to interfere in the affairs of man. James White and many other Calvinists accuse open theists of bringing God down to man's level. Though I can't speak for other open theists, I will say that it is rather you, the Calvinists who do that by constantly implying that God somehow needs to prove that he is good. Do you really believe that the sovereign Lord is interested in banks? If the sovereign Lord were to just make a whisper, the rush of his breath would destroy Earth and heaven in a breath.

Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it????? Or will you continue to misrepresent?
 
Last edited:

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
:doh: So is OSAS, by that token.

Here is the truth of it:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

The answer: Nobody. God isn't just 'a player' in the affairs of man. He is owner, completely sovereign (and get this): Whether you say 'okay or not.'

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Answer: Nope. I live, die, or go to hell for His glory. Do you have a say? If He gives you anything like that, thank Him for it and realize it isn't libertarian. There is no such thing as libertarian. Such would be more responsibility than you actually have, and you are correct, I don't take more responsibility than I have been given, whatever that may be. It is not libertarian (iow, not as much as you assume I need to be responsible for, nor you are) either.
If you really believed that both righteousness and wickedness glorifies God, then why do you get upset when wickedness happens?
 

Nimrod

Member
God decreed before time whether or not these nation would do these things and yet He meant it when He said He would change His mind concerning His promises if they changed their ways...


Here is a question and answer thread to Lighthouse many months ago. :dizzy:
Question for Lighthouse:
Is this a true statement?

If Open Theism is true, then there is no guarantee that everything will work out as God wants in the end.

No, that is not a true statement.




Richard Rice writes that God’s foreknowledge is not infallible: "The fact that God foreknows or predestines something does not guarantee that it will happen." (15Richard Rice in The Openness of God: A Biblical Challenge to the Traditional Understanding of God, eds. Richard Rice, John Sanders, Clark Pinnock, William Hasker and David Basinger (Downers Grove, IL: IVP, 1994), pp. 55-56.)

So not all those who hold to Open Theism agree on this.

No.

We do agree that God makes definite plans and contingent plans.

Take Nineveh for instance; God said He was going to destroy them, but since the repented He did not.


Either there is or there isn't. Can't have both.

Now you are saying there is no guarantee?


You're an idiot.


Maybe one of these days Lighthouse will answer the guarantee question. In the meantime, the debate was great because James was able to ask YES/NO questions and get a direct response. Trying to get one here is.....well....not going to happen.
 

chatmaggot

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Holy crap this was extremely sickening to hear. I was cringing at the blasphemy Enyart was spewing during that cross examination. I can't believe how ridiculously low open theists would go in denigrating God to save their golden calf of free will. They are no different from atheists who reject God because they want autonomy.

Did Jesus live a sinless life because He was incapable of sinning or because He chose not to sin?

Consider the following analogy (I understand analogies aren't perfect and fall apart when pressed far enough):

A man not murdering his wife is a good thing. But is it good if he doesn't murder his wife because he chooses not to or because he is locked up in a prison cell and is unable to. Which husband is the "good" husband?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Did Jesus live a sinless life because He was incapable of sinning or because He chose not to sin?

Consider the following analogy (I understand analogies aren't perfect and fall apart when pressed far enough):

A man not murdering his wife is a good thing. But is it good if he doesn't murder his wife because he chooses not to or because he is locked up in a prison cell and is unable to. Which husband is the "good" husband?
Let's keep this focused. The question from the James White was: Could Jesus have chosen to not go to the cross? It was not: Could Jesus sin?
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Did Jesus live a sinless life because He was incapable of sinning or because He chose not to sin?

Consider the following analogy (I understand analogies aren't perfect and fall apart when pressed far enough):

A man not murdering his wife is a good thing. But is it good if he doesn't murder his wife because he chooses not to or because he is locked up in a prison cell and is unable to. Which husband is the "good" husband?
Interesting question.

It relates to what one considers "omnipotent" to be.

If you accept that "omnipotent" means that God can do anything without any limitations at all, then anytime one claims that God "cannot" do something is making a false claim.
 

Jay Walk

New member
Here is how a rational discussion works: You take something the other guy has said and you explain why you disagree. Arguments from consequence play no part in a rational discourse.

How about you practice what you preach. You're one that started playing rhetoric games with your "keke your god wrote in stone you would go off on a tirade kekeke". I was simply answering a fool according to his folly as the Bible commands. Can't take your own medicine?

"Free will" is a tautology. If it is not free, it is not a will. God cannot violate our will, that would make our actions His will.

Which makes it a tautology that your God is powerless in stopping my will. Thank you for reinforcing my point you replied to.

Nope. He is mighty and able to work despite the array of wills opposed to Him.

Except when he gives prophecies that failed according to you. A true mighty God can say with 100% assurance he will do "X" and it will come to pass.

Who is more powerful: a man who builds robots that do exactly as they are programmed, or a man who commands an army to victory?

The man who doesn't get on his knees and begs his creation to follow his orders and often fails daily. If you think an open theist god who isn't omnipotent can be more powerful than a Sovereign God, you are a lost cause.

Strange. You just got off a long rant all about what I supposedly believe. :idunno:

Not strange at all. As I stated you threw "rational discourse" out the window whit your first reply to me. You can't take what you dish out.

He does not believe God can be evil. Making things up for people to believe is not part of a rational discussion.

And willful ignorance is a sin you should repent of. Remember, liars wont inherit the kingdom of God. The video is up and Enyart says yes God could have possibly rebelled against the father and could possibly do evil.

:AMR: Can you ask this again in English?

You mean can I dumb down the question to grade school level understanding? Its not that hard - Does God have a choice when it comes to committing evil or not?
 

Lon

Well-known member
If you really believed that both righteousness and wickedness glorifies God, then why do you get upset when wickedness happens?
Do you believe God works all things for the good? Why do you get upset? I'm thinking this is one of those questions that you ask yourself before you ask out loud :)
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
How about you practice what you preach. You're one that started playing rhetoric games with your "keke your god wrote in stone you would go off on a tirade kekeke". I was simply answering a fool according to his folly as the Bible commands. Can't take your own medicine?
:AMR:

Which makes it a tautology that your God is powerless in stopping my will. Thank you for reinforcing my point you replied to.
:AMR:

Do you know what that word means?

Except when he gives prophecies that failed according to you. A true mighty God can say with 100% assurance he will do "X" and it will come to pass.
As God can. You really need to start arguing against what people say rather than inventing things to argue against.

The man who doesn't get on his knees and begs his creation to follow his orders and often fails daily.
It was a simple question. If you cannot answer, you could just say so. :thumb:

Does God have a choice when it comes to committing evil or not?
No, He doesn't. He cannot deny Himself.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Interesting question.

It relates to what one considers "omnipotent" to be.

If you accept that "omnipotent" means that God can do anything without any limitations at all, then anytime one claims that God "cannot" do something is making a false claim.

And, since we know for certain that God cannot deny himself - because the Bible tells me so - then we know that the concept of God's omnipotence is meaningless.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Interesting question.

It relates to what one considers "omnipotent" to be.

If you accept that "omnipotent" means that God can do anything without any limitations at all, then anytime one claims that God "cannot" do something is making a false claim.

And, since we know for certain that God cannot deny himself - because the Bible tells me so - then we know that the concept of God's omnipotence is meaningless.
Right.
Which means that God does have limits.

But scripture also says that all things are possible for God to do.
Mark 14
(36) And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.



If God has limits as to His power, then it should also be considered if He has limits concerning omnipresence and omniscience.
 

npatterson85

New member
Right.
Which means that God does have limits.

But scripture also says that all things are possible for God to do.
Mark 14
(36) And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.



If God has limits as to His power, then it should also be considered if He has limits concerning omnipresence and omniscience.

It could also be looked at that God based upon the situations that arise due to free agents is already working to bring about the greater good in the unfolding contingency plan leading up to the second coming. He is working with people who don't always follow His will, but He is capable of predicting trends and outcomes based upon knowing His creation so intimately, and so God is causing all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, and genuinely seek Him, and are daily being conformed to the image of Christ via sanctification.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Sovereignty and control are two different things. You mix these up and are not clear in your own mind so I don't see I can even begin to answer you.
You are as condescending to me as I am to you :thumb:

No rather sovereignty means I am Lord over everything. Control means I have my hand in it. God is both sovereign and in control or else He couldn't even be omnicompetent as the Open Theist asserts :)

I have told you many times before that sovereignty and total control are not the same thing and yet you keep repeating that we are the same on this issue.
:nono: Just the same questions the world is asking both of us. My ONLY contention is buck passing/ scapegoating. That's it. Nothing more than that. If you point the finger at me, I have absolutely no trouble pointing it back atcha. None at all and will easily continue to do so. Don't like it? Remove your accusatory sig. :think:

WE AREN'T. Learn it. Your problem, and that of many Calvinists, is that when the scripture tells us that God is sovereign, this is not good enough for you. The God of the Bible is not good enough for you that you have to go further by asserting that God is in total control of everything.
The God of the Bible, is perfect for me:

Jeremiah 10:23 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man does not belong to man; it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are of Jehovah; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know what I have planned for you,'says the LORD. 'I have plans to prosper you, not to harm you. I have plans to give you a future filled with hope.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Pro 3:5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He will.

Psa 33:9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood.
Psa 33:10 Jehovah brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He breaks the plots of the people.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of Jehovah stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah; the people He has chosen for His inheritance.
Psa 33:13 Jehovah looks down from Heaven; He beholds all the sons of mankind.
Psa 33:14 From His dwelling place He looks on all the people of the earth.
Psa 33:15 Together He forms their hearts; His understanding is to all their works.

Psa 37:18 Jehovah knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by Jehovah; and He delights in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be cast down; for Jehovah upholds his hand.

Job 14:5 For his days are fixed, the number of his months is with You, and You have set his bounds so that he cannot pass;

Isaiah 46:9 Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;
Isaiah 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my purpose from a far country. Yes, I have spoken, I will also cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it.

Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? :nono:
Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Seems like scripture and seems like He has control :think:
And then, to cover up the fact that you are exaggerating what the Bible says you call this idea of total control sovereignty anyway. And so you distort language itself in order to bolster your false theology.
MANY more scholars who say 'absolutely not' in my camp. I'm not sure if you even are one.

Actually you didn't. I read those scriptures and I didn't see the words 'God is in absolute control'. We can do nothing without food and water. But that doesn't mean that food and water are in control of us.
I've fixed that now, it I didn't before. No more excuses. :nono:

Yes, it is. As I have told you before.
Learn it.
Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it?????
I recognize you don't think so. I also recognize you don't escape the accusations. BTW, I seldom hear the world smart enough about these things to accuse, it is mostly Open Theists who do so. Interesting, that.
I assert control is control. I am not a double-pred: Hilston's sig has a link to the difference between God's prescriptive and decretive will. One is about what He ordains and the other is about what He does by His own actions. Because I believe this, I'm closer to you than some other Calvinists and it is important on that point, but I don't think the 'extent' of control is as big a concern if you believe the above scriptures given. I believe Bob Enyart was wrong and God can, as Romans 9 says, override our free will. He definitely does with Christians because we are daily following Him, but He can do as He likes with His own creation. The only sovereign over creation is God. No creation is sovereign even over himself, especially no believer. God is His sovereign and thus does control. Correcting, changing our paths, etc. are controls. I have controlled my children out of harms way. They had no choice. I impeded their supposed libertarian free will. The scriptures above say God does as well. That means He will control you whenever He darn-well pleases and as a child of His, you better darn-well like it. He is Lord. You are the creature.
Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it?????
God could end your life in two seconds. You are currently, this very second, sustained by His power Colossians 1:17 What 'control' do you think you have other than what was stolen by Adam and received at our birth by God's forebearance? Why are you demanding God not be allowed, especially as a Christian? I pray often "Not my will, but thine" and "change my heart O God, make it ever true."
Yes, I know I'm 'responsible' but I'm seeing a LOT of hang-ups with 'me' due to the Fall. A LOT! I'm supposed to be His creature. He's supposed to be able to call the shots. AND I NEED it so much more, having a nature that goes contrary to His will!

Calvinism and open theism are different in many ways. They are fundamentally different, they are fundamentally opposed. Open theism is not a variation of Calvinism. It is not a variation of Arminianism either. It seems to me that one of your problems is you think open theism is like Arminianism: you have had an experience of open theism in the past that has been focused on only the one idea of foreknowledge. You have yet to understand how radically different it is from both Arminianism and Calvinism and hence why both Arminianism and Calvinism are so radically wrong.
Slight correct: Yes, I agree with you, but not all open theists do. However, my ONLY contention and I'll repeat myself as well, is that you scapegoat 'us' when you aren't quite as radically different as you'd hoped.
The day you (collectively plural as in Ya'all) stand on your own without a Calvinism scapegoat in your sig, is the day I 'might' start to believe you. You want to be separate so bad too! :nono: Not at this present time.
One thing, however, that will help, I think, is this: I am in the SBC. The one where Sanders and Boyd come from (I think I remember that correctly, that Boyd is the other, it might be Pinnock). At any rate, my denomination says we are not that different at present. Once you prove your point, there will be a shake up in the SBC and I think we'll likely split at that point or something. It is already coming to a head rather quickly, but until then, I'm trying to honor my denominational stance, even as I represent it here on TOL. I appreciate a few of you want that clean break, but it is hardly set in stone at the moment.
Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it????? Or will you continue to misrepresent?
Again, I said, and you are incredibly a knee-jerker here, that the amount of control you acquiesce isn't important. YOU are obfuscating. Change that above to 'no control at all' and I can be done. If you believe in any at all, then you get to answer some of your own questions you tried to pass off to Calvinists. Again, my ONLY concern, with you, now and much of the time, is that you, and Open Theist, are scapegoating and buck passing and not dealing with your own mess you 'tried' to pass off. You even do so in your sig. You can't help yourself. You have to define yourself as completely opposed to Calvinism. If you are, you aren't a theist at all anymore. You HAVE to believe the ▲same scriptures▲
What do you as an open theist, with Romans 9? Answer Paul's question: "Does not the Potter have every right to do whatever He wants with created beings?" See, Paul relegates your independence to a non-issue. I believe we have free-will, but that it is stolen, and not at all libertarian. We have no right to it. That is what Romans 9 conveys.

The sovereign Lord is under no obligation to interfere in the affairs of man. James White and many other Calvinists accuse open theists of bringing God down to man's level. Though I can't speak for other open theists, I will say that it is rather you, the Calvinists who do that by constantly implying that God somehow needs to prove that he is good. Do you really believe that the sovereign Lord is interested in banks? If the sovereign Lord were to just make a whisper, the rush of his breath would destroy Earth and heaven in a breath.
Absolutely. Now what? You are not as different from me as you hoped/imagined? That we might have commonalities we 'cannot' pass off on one another? I have no problem with you saying you are different. I agree. I'm saying I'm pointing out things we also have in common and if we don't get to answer them together, we still have to answer the same hard questions. You just answered this one for both of us. Thanks. Good deal. Why would anyone try to pass the buck when you have the answer right there. Why say God is the 'author of attrocity' in Calvinism when I know I've read the same answer (or nearly) from Calvinists as well. Not that hard. We agree. Great!

If more Open Theists would give this answer, not try and characterize us in sigs, and just address issues, we'd have a lot less needed dialogue. A LOT less (I do think He is interested in banks as they relate to His children. A few of them are praying about financial needs).

Will you recognise that I, as an open theist, have maintained consistently that God is sovereign and that sovereignty is not defined as absolute control over the world?

Yes or no? Will you recognise it????? Or will you continue to misrepresent?
Sure, I don't believe them the same either, and said so above, but that was never the real issue. The issue was that Calvinists are accused of all the things associated with control and Open Theism is accused of over-asserting independence and God's deference to his libertarian free-will.

There are truths expressed on the flip side of a coin here, one manward and the other Godward. We are definitely on opposite sides of the coin but both concerned with God's Character and His love for people. Such has us both looking at the issues involved on the other side of the coin (and having to answer for those too). It used to be basically a Calvin/Arminian concern. Both sides have hypers. OV is hyper on one side and there are double-preds and hypers on the other. It seems too, that some OVer's are more so than others just as in the Calvinist camp. That's like a hyper hyper Open Theist and a hyper hyper Calvinist o_O

At any rate, once you say 'any' control, you are discussing with me why Attrocities happen instead of just shoving them my way. It isn't 'just' my God that has attrocities in His world nor just mine where they are not stopped. That always/ever is the point.
 

Lon

Well-known member
And, since we know for certain that God cannot deny himself - because the Bible tells me so - then we know that the concept of God's omnipotence is meaningless.

Illogical questions do not mean there is no such thing as omnipotence.
First, a privation, is not a lack. God 'cannot' deny Himself. That is not a lack in omnipotence.

Right.
Which means that God does have limits.

But scripture also says that all things are possible for God to do.
Mark 14
(36) And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
If God has limits as to His power, then it should also be considered if He has limits concerning omnipresence and omniscience.
WHAT could limit God? Anything? If it does, He is no longer God but is subject to a law/rule/power greater than Himself.

Think with me for a moment: Your WHOLE logic and reasoning concepts are NECESSARILY finite. If you are finite, you cannot comprehend ANYTHING that could 'limit' or constrain God. Can't even THINK of it. Do you understand? This is why Omnipotence fits with His infinite. There is NOTHING outside of God. If there is NOTHING outside of God, then NOTHING can constrain Him. See?

If that doesn't suffice: Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty (all -mighty --Omni - "all" potent - "powerful" see my sig also)."
Genesis 17:1 2nd Corinthians 6:18 Revelation 11:17 Revelation 15:3 Revelation 16:7 Revelation 16:14 Revelation 19:6 Revelation 19:15 Revelation 21:22

In our Almighty God,

-Lon
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Do you believe God works all things for the good?
Of course not.
Things only turn out good for those that love God, because they are the ones that get eternal life.
Things don't turn out good for those that don't love God.


Why do you get upset?
Because not all glorifies God.


I'm thinking this is one of those questions that you ask yourself before you ask out loud :)
Same to you.
 
Top