Its safer to own a gun?

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eider

eider

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patrick jane said:
I don't have a gun yet but I will soon - Then I'll learn all about it and practice. I like revolvers too.
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When I was a very young teenager I spent every spare hour wildfowling over salt-marshes.... loaded my own cartridges and also had a muzzle-loading 8bore.

I shot in smallbore competitions and in fullbore at Bisley. I was invited to train up to shoot at the 76' olympics in Montreal but couldn't leave kids and a very ill wife. Pistol shooting bored me silly, but the most exciting and rewarding shooting was paintball competition. If you have never tried that then you should.... the next day you will ache in every single muscle!

As the legislation slowly took a hold I was content to give it all up, but I still take a keen interest in the bow, sling and slingshot. I was once quite good with a sling and could hurl a golf-ball size stone nearly 300 yards.

But today, in the UK, gun crime is as nothing by comparioson to, say, the US. There was a robbery attempt at our local Jewellers last Tuesday, and the robber charged into the shop wielding an axe. The shop staff wrestled the idiot to the floor and disarmed him, and then he jumped up and ran off. The shop staff did not give chase, which sounds a bit feeble but they are trained staff. The Jewellery company's insurance protection for employees ends at a distance of ten feet from outside the exit doors, and the UK is filled with 60 million CCTV systems, so it's impossible to go into any UK town withouit being recorded in HD about twenty times, plus the shop CCTV coverage. And so an idiot with an axe is about the most exciting thing that's happened here this year, I reckon.

US folks chide us about the fact that we are not allowed out with more than a tiny penknife, but there are benefits. Right now at 0530 in the morning I could put on jeans, t-shirt and trainers, pocket a debit card or some cash, and just go out...... anywhere. There was an 'all you need' advert once that showed a pretty lady in a bikini who pushed a credit card into her top and walked out into a town centre to go shopping, returning wearing a smart outfit, shoes, luggage etc.. That's not only legal here, but perfectly possible. So the idea of a person needing to holster up, gun up, ammo up.... every time they wanted to go to, say, the local park to sail a model boat (whatever) is just .... kind of shocking.
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

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eider said:
When I was a very young teenager I spent every spare hour wildfowling over salt-marshes.... loaded my own cartridges and also had a muzzle-loading 8bore.

I shot in smallbore competitions and in fullbore at Bisley. I was invited to train up to shoot at the 76' olympics in Montreal but couldn't leave kids and a very ill wife. Pistol shooting bored me silly, but the most exciting and rewarding shooting was paintball competition. If you have never tried that then you should.... the next day you will ache in every single muscle!

As the legislation slowly took a hold I was content to give it all up, but I still take a keen interest in the bow, sling and slingshot. I was once quite good with a sling and could hurl a golf-ball size stone nearly 300 yards.

But today, in the UK, gun crime is as nothing by comparioson to, say, the US. There was a robbery attempt at our local Jewellers last Tuesday, and the robber charged into the shop wielding an axe. The shop staff wrestled the idiot to the floor and disarmed him, and then he jumped up and ran off. The shop staff did not give chase, which sounds a bit feeble but they are trained staff. The Jewellery company's insurance protection for employees ends at a distance of ten feet from outside the exit doors, and the UK is filled with 60 million CCTV systems, so it's impossible to go into any UK town withouit being recorded in HD about twenty times, plus the shop CCTV coverage. And so an idiot with an axe is about the most exciting thing that's happened here this year, I reckon.

US folks chide us about the fact that we are not allowed out with more than a tiny penknife, but there are benefits. Right now at 0530 in the morning I could put on jeans, t-shirt and trainers, pocket a debit card or some cash, and just go out...... anywhere. There was an 'all you need' advert once that showed a pretty lady in a bikini who pushed a credit card into her top and walked out into a town centre to go shopping, returning wearing a smart outfit, shoes, luggage etc.. That's not only legal here, but perfectly possible. So the idea of a person needing to holster up, gun up, ammo up.... every time they wanted to go to, say, the local park to sail a model boat (whatever) is just .... kind of shocking.
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It's like the Wild West over here !!! :chuckle:
 
C

chair

Well-known member
I am reminded of a gentleman I knew years ago. A security consultant. There was a rash of bank robberies at the time, and one of the bank chains hired him to get some advice on what to do. One of the ideas was to hire armed guards for each branch of the bank.

Guess what his advice was?
 
musterion

musterion

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If he was a leftist like you, his advice was to give the criminals whatever they asked for and beg not to be murdered.
 
C

chair

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musterion said:
If he was a leftist like you, his advice was to give the criminals whatever they asked for and beg not to be murdered.
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It has nothing to do with being a "leftist". I still don't know what you mean by that term. I guess you use it as a catch-all for people you disagree with.

In any case, this fellow was a professional in the security business. In Israel.
 
musterion

musterion

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A British citizen -- lets call her Maggie -- heads out about her daily business. As she's waiting for the train, there are no police in sight as, without warning, two Mohammedans armed with large kitchen knives appear out of nowhere and go on a rampage, randomly slashing and stabbing commuters. Police arrive 15 seconds later. By that time, one commuter is dead, two are bleeding out and will die. Two others are in critical condition, two are wounded.

During the attack, Maggie was blocked from the view of the terrorists because she happened to be standing about 20 feet away behind a large tiled column, from where she had unobstructed view of the terrorists for much of the attack.

Question: Had Maggie and other citizens lived in a society that allowed them to train and legally carry guns for self-defense, enabling them to at least try to take out the terrorists before the police arrived, would the commuters have been safer?
 
C

chair

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chair said:
I am reminded of a gentleman I knew years ago. A security consultant. There was a rash of bank robberies at the time, and one of the bank chains hired him to get some advice on what to do. One of the ideas was to hire armed guards for each branch of the bank.

Guess what his advice was?
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His advice was to do nothing. Armed security guards were the absolute worst option. The reasoning was financial.(Sorry, nothing to do with being a "leftist"). If the armed guard tried to stop a robber, and there was a shoot-out, the lawsuits from the customer casualties would cost the banks far more than whatever the robber would have managed to get away with.
 
ok doser

ok doser

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chair said:
His advice was to do nothing. Armed security guards were the absolute worst option. The reasoning was financial.(Sorry, nothing to do with being a "leftist"). If the armed guard tried to stop a robber, and there was a shoot-out, the lawsuits from the customer casualties would cost the banks far more than whatever the robber would have managed to get away with.
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And if there had been a rash of bank robberies by a gang that also shot customers and employees Willy-nilly during the robberies?
 
J

Jonahdog

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musterion said:
A British citizen -- lets call her Maggie -- heads out about her daily business. As she's waiting for the train, there are no police in sight as, without warning, two Mohammedans armed with large kitchen knives appear out of nowhere and go on a rampage, randomly slashing and stabbing commuters. Police arrive 15 seconds later. By that time, one commuter is dead, two are bleeding out and will die. Two others are in critical condition, two are wounded.

During the attack, Maggie was blocked from the view of the terrorists because she happened to be standing about 20 feet away behind a large tiled column, from where she had unobstructed view of the terrorists for much of the attack.

Question: Had Maggie and other citizens lived in a society that allowed them to train and legally carry guns for self-defense, enabling them to at least try to take out the terrorists before the police arrived, would the commuters have been safer?
Click to expand...
No. Only in your dreams
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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eider said:
Imagine that you had carried out all of those 'actions' as described earlier, and went out shopping, or walking in the park, whatever.... somehow carrying that gun.
Let's say that you chose a mid-weight mid-calibre mid-power 11-shot handgun, concealed. During your trip you drive into a garage (filling station?)
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We call them gas stations here.

to fill up your vehicle, and then you go into the station shop to buy a soft-drink and pay for all. There is a long queue. You are day dreaming about something. The next thing you know all hell and gunshots breaks loose, ahead of you is a big man wearing a hood pointing a big handgun at the ceiling; dust is falling down from the shots that tore into the ceiling tiles. He is shouting at the cashier and turning to left and right shouting at everybody to get on the floor. He turns and smashes the first customer at the till-point in the face with the gun and she falls to the floor. He shoots a couple of shots into the anti-bandit glass but although the bullets do smash through the 13mm laminated pain it does hold together, and so he starts to beat at the screening with the gun. Nobody has moved but you, who pulled your gun and trying to control your adrenalin filled and shaking body you steady yourself and aim.
..... Now.... it's up to you to tell yourself how many shots you fire at this man, if that's what you decide to do. It's your call...... I'm going to guess that you aim for his mid-upper body at 20 feet and shoot three times, but if you want you can empty the blooming gun into him.

....Now, it's your call.... how many times did you hit him? And by the way, what shot/slugs are you using in that handgun?

.... I've got to go for thirty minutes....... could you fill in those spaces, anmd also tell me where you hit him, etc. If you missed with a shot, tell me that as well...


OK?


EDIT: I've got to go to bed.... will see if you answered in the morning.
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I would have pulled out my gun, taken aim, and fired off at least 2-3 rounds at his center of mass immediately after seeing him fire off the first few shots into the ceiling, which probably would have caused most of the people to drop to the ground in fear, giving me a clear shot at him.

After he goes down, then I would proceed to make my way over to him and kick his gun away from him, tell the owner of the store to call 911, and then go around making sure no one was hurt and helping them up.
 
musterion

musterion

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Recently read a statistic that I need to track down that said almost all perps flee (or try to) when shot. I supposed it could depend on what they're shot with but it said very few try to return fire even if they're able to. That's just survival instinct, on top of the fact that most criminals, typically being stupider than average, do not expect to ever be shot and so are shocked and terrified when it happens.
 
C

chair

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ok doser said:
And if there had been a rash of bank robberies by a gang that also shot customers and employees Willy-nilly during the robberies?
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I'm telling you a true story about what was. Not some hypothetical situation.

I suspect that bank robbers are not interested in shooting people up will-nilly. What would be the point? But I am not an expert on that.

I will say that the situation in a robbery is very difficult to handle. I've trained with weapons. Only military ones. Shot at different kinds of targets with a variety of weapons. Group exercises. Know what to do in a combat situation (I've been spared that, but I was trained for it). Yet I do not know how to handle a situation where there's a bunch of innocent people surrounding a bad guy.
 
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