One Eyed Jack
New member
Yep.
That is the reference Jesus Himself made to killing homosexuals, but it isn't in the Gospels. This reference He made to Moses.
It's All Buddha
- Thread starter wickwoman
- Start date
Yep.
That is the reference Jesus Himself made to killing homosexuals, but it isn't in the Gospels. This reference He made to Moses.
No, Jesus was clarifying "OT stuff." Here's another example of Him doing just that:
- Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, "Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?"
And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." - Mark 2:23-28
And the priest answered David and said, "There is no common bread on hand; but there is holy bread, if the young men have at least kept themselves from women."
Then David answered the priest, and said to him, "Truly, women have been kept from us about three days since I came out. And the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in effect common, even though it was consecrated in the vessel this day."
So the priest gave him holy bread; for there was no bread there but the showbread which had been taken from before the LORD, in order to put hot bread in its place on the day when it was taken away. 1 Samuel 21:4-6
Jesus upheld the Old Testament Scriptures and its Law. He claimed that it was God's authoritative word. And since Jesus is God, He not only endorsed, but also inspired the Old Testament.
- Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. " And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Luke 24:44-45
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." - John 8:58
Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, "What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Exodus 3:13-14
Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:29-32 (also Mark 12:24-26)
"But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'" Luke 20:37
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!"
And he said, "Here I am."
Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God… Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'" Exodus 3:1-6, 15
But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:34-40 (also Mark 12:28-34; Luke 10:25-28)
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Deuteronomy 6:5
"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17-18
Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
He said to Him, "Which ones?"
Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Exodus 20:12-16 (also Deuteronomy 5:16-20)
[Leviticus 19:17-18 referenced again]
Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
'These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." Matthew 15:1-11 (also Mark 7:5-16)
[Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16 referenced again]
"And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:17 (see Deuteronomy 21:18-21 for more detail and clarification.)
Therefore the Lord said:
"Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men," Isaiah 29:13
ShadowMaid
New member
Aussie, Christine is a young lady now. She can decide for herself if given the choice.
BChristianK
New member
Dread_Helm said:
Doesn’t God’s forgiveness of sins extend to commuting physical executions as well as spiritual ones?
If they don’t, then the example of David and the example of the woman caught in adultery are examples of God’s injustice. He should have executed them both.
Isn’t this what you said:
So remind me why the repentant homosexual should be killed again? If Jesus can forgive the sins of those who repent, why are we killing repentant sinners?
Now regarding the Sabbath you said:
So were Sabbath breaking and adultery.
Grace and Peace
I might ask you the same question. If the repentant sinner in my modified parable is repentant, then who are we to say that he still deserves death?
Doesn’t God’s forgiveness of sins extend to commuting physical executions as well as spiritual ones?
If they don’t, then the example of David and the example of the woman caught in adultery are examples of God’s injustice. He should have executed them both.
Isn’t this what you said:
and..
Perhaps God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion, and we would do well to be gracious before we demand God’s wrath. For whatever measure we use in judging others is the measure we can expect God to use in judging us
Exactly, and God is not only able to release people of spiritual punishment but physical punishment as well and furthermore, He doesn’t need my permission or Mr. Enyarts permission or your permission to do so.
So remind me why the repentant homosexual should be killed again? If Jesus can forgive the sins of those who repent, why are we killing repentant sinners?
Now regarding the Sabbath you said:
So was the command to punish homosexuality with death.
As do you.
So were Sabbath breaking and adultery.
Please show me a verse that says that only the symbolic commandments were dealt with by Jesus on the cross, and that the legal penalties for non-symbolic commands are still in affect.
Grace and Peace
BChristianK
New member
Originally posted by Turbo
Adultery is a form of (criminal) sexual immorality. :doh:
And adultery wasn't a form of criminal sexual immorality in the economy of the law?
Sabbath braking wasn’t a form of criminal cultic immorality in the economy of the law?
Again no one has been able to explain to me why a dispensationalist would carry a penalty against homosexuality given during the dispensation of Law into the current dispensation while leaving the penalties of Sabbath breaking and adultery behind.
I don't expect Dread to be able to do this since he is twelve, but I would expect you to be able to do this turbo.
So lets do what Bob Hill urges us to do and lets test things that differ.
So why in this dispensation, according to Pastor Hill, is the enmity of the Law of commandments contained in ordinances abolished in the flesh of Christ in regards to the penalty of Sabbath keeping but not in regards to the penalty of homosexuality?
What scriptural reason can you give me to accept that this OT ordinance is special?
Grace and Peace
JoyfulRook
New member
Amen, and then they should be executed.
Flipper
New member
Turbo:
I would suggest you go back and listen to some of Bob Enyart's shows on Michael Jackson then. Or read some threads on the Michael Jackson topic.
They've got him on the gallows already. Which is really against the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty" as I don't recall the Jackson trial being concluded yet.
So cool your jets there, sparky.
I would suggest you go back and listen to some of Bob Enyart's shows on Michael Jackson then. Or read some threads on the Michael Jackson topic.
They've got him on the gallows already. Which is really against the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty" as I don't recall the Jackson trial being concluded yet.
So cool your jets there, sparky.
BChristianK
New member
And the one without sin should cast the first stone....
BChristianK,
You make a GREAT point…
It shows how demented haters can point to ANYTHING they like in the Bible as justification for the object of their hatred.
They PICK and CHOOSE which “laws” they will abide and which can be dispensated.
They ALL break the Sabbath law and phulenty of others but that is OK cause they do it.. but the ‘homo’s.. they MUST be executed for their transgression.
Turbo & Jack,
There is NO way you can interpret Jesus condoning the execution of homosexuals. If you are using the fact that he often reiterated following OT law as the right thing to do you MUST say breaking the Sabbath is punishable by execution ?
Jesus himself broke OT law (or allowed it) and in some things was in TOTAL disagreement with OT law. Like the Turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye.
How could Jesus say turn the other cheek and promote execution for ANY crime.
Jesus was VERY clear your punishment would be in the next life unless you repented… he NEVER talks of punishment in this life !
You guys seem so hung up on the OT .. Jesus fundamental message was not the fire and brimstone insanity of Bob Enyart and his inquisitional Goons it was of love and tolerance and ..in respect to the treatment of other humans..
TURN THE OTHER CHEEK AND
DO UNTO OTHERS..
I cannot see how you miss these two things as his expectations of human behaviour !
Shadowmaid and Christine,
Sadly neither of you exhibit anything like grown up behaviour. When you experience some more life hopefully you will gain compassion and tolerance.
BTW Do you think Homosexuality is a natural thing ? (Remember animals do it too).. If so wasn’t it “created” by God ?.. Why did he do that ?
You make a GREAT point…
It shows how demented haters can point to ANYTHING they like in the Bible as justification for the object of their hatred.
They PICK and CHOOSE which “laws” they will abide and which can be dispensated.
They ALL break the Sabbath law and phulenty of others but that is OK cause they do it.. but the ‘homo’s.. they MUST be executed for their transgression.
Turbo & Jack,
There is NO way you can interpret Jesus condoning the execution of homosexuals. If you are using the fact that he often reiterated following OT law as the right thing to do you MUST say breaking the Sabbath is punishable by execution ?
Jesus himself broke OT law (or allowed it) and in some things was in TOTAL disagreement with OT law. Like the Turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye.
How could Jesus say turn the other cheek and promote execution for ANY crime.
Jesus was VERY clear your punishment would be in the next life unless you repented… he NEVER talks of punishment in this life !
You guys seem so hung up on the OT .. Jesus fundamental message was not the fire and brimstone insanity of Bob Enyart and his inquisitional Goons it was of love and tolerance and ..in respect to the treatment of other humans..
TURN THE OTHER CHEEK AND
DO UNTO OTHERS..
I cannot see how you miss these two things as his expectations of human behaviour !
Shadowmaid and Christine,
Sadly neither of you exhibit anything like grown up behaviour. When you experience some more life hopefully you will gain compassion and tolerance.
BTW Do you think Homosexuality is a natural thing ? (Remember animals do it too).. If so wasn’t it “created” by God ?.. Why did he do that ?
Flipper,
Nice call…
And also..
Can you imagine if we did execute homosexuals.. We can’t even get it right executing multiple murderers etc.. can you imagine how many innocents (well they all are of course) would be going to their Death.
How many witnesses are going to say “Oh yeah he had sex with me.. execute him.. Oh hang on.. DOH” ..as they cart away the witness
Nice call…
And also..
Can you imagine if we did execute homosexuals.. We can’t even get it right executing multiple murderers etc.. can you imagine how many innocents (well they all are of course) would be going to their Death.
How many witnesses are going to say “Oh yeah he had sex with me.. execute him.. Oh hang on.. DOH” ..as they cart away the witness
Balder
New member
The Mean Blue Meme rears its ugly head.
All of you here who endorse the execution of homosexuals and other "sinners," you are pouring shame on the head of Christ, and disgrace upon his body. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
But I wonder if we can blame them, in a way. Modern Christianity tends to sweep some of the outrageous "commands" and acts in the Bible under the rug, arguing either that they were right for the time, or else just ignoring them -- but in both ways implicitly putting the stamp of "holiness" and infallibility on them. But when we face these modes of thought in the flesh, instead of safely in a book or at a safe historical distance, we recognize them for what they are.
Or so one hopes.
All of you here who endorse the execution of homosexuals and other "sinners," you are pouring shame on the head of Christ, and disgrace upon his body. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
But I wonder if we can blame them, in a way. Modern Christianity tends to sweep some of the outrageous "commands" and acts in the Bible under the rug, arguing either that they were right for the time, or else just ignoring them -- but in both ways implicitly putting the stamp of "holiness" and infallibility on them. But when we face these modes of thought in the flesh, instead of safely in a book or at a safe historical distance, we recognize them for what they are.
Or so one hopes.
Cyrus of Persia
New member
How do i believe then what differs from them?
And btw, i'm not church, but person, so most probably i do not believe similary than any specifical CHURCH does :chuckle:
Cyrus of Persia
New member
Can you point out WHERE can i find your answer to the question?
Cyrus of Persia
New member
LOL!
I actually waited since yesterday that someone makes this comment. Let's look into this further...
Matthew 5:31-32:
"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
According the logic Jack uses Jesus is referring to HIMSELF when He said the words written in Deuteronomy 24:1-4.
It's like claiming that Cyrus once said: "If your wife is bad, you can divorce from her".
And now centuries later the same Cyrus comes up saying: "It has said: "If your wife is bad, you can divorce from her", but i say to you that everyone who divorces from his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress".
Sounds weird, uh?
Lemme give some more examples where Jesus is arguing with HIS OWN WORDS HE ONCE SAID TO MOSES:
Matthew 5:33-42:
"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil. "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."
Christine
New member
Grownup behaviour? What could possibly be wrong with believing as Jesus, Paul the Apostle, and other prominent Bible characters did? BTW: Aussie Thinker, it's obious you don't want to debate. You just want to promote your beliefs, even if it means belittleing the other side. I will not be responding to you any more. I have better things to do with my time.
Cyrus of Persia
New member
I hate to say that, but Dread, it's just utter stupidity. You have no basis of this in NT, but all you have is hatred and phobia against homos in your heart what forbids them to see the similar human beings as you.
I'm sorry to say that, but you sould like Hitler when he referred to Jews. You bear the same spirit than he, what wants to divide people (ignoring that we all are sinning, and their sin is not worser than your sins), and send to gas chambers those you dislike.
I really hope that when you grow up you will keep in touch with Christians who will give you some sound teaching, that will root out all the hatred and false understanding about God and the Bible that is rooted in your heart by the devilish teachers and books you have heard and read.
I pray for you, my friend.
Cyrus of Persia
New member
1. Can you stop comparing me as person with church as organisation, please? :chuckle:
Compare me with other baptists who are persons, if you like.
2. I have personally met ministers of different Baptist churches who dont see homosexuality as sin today. Some of them were also from U.S. besides of Europe.
3. It's ok to call me liberal on matters is homosexuality sin, or not. But i hope you dont think that i'm liberal when defending the claim that homos are no more worthy of death than any other sinner is. I hope you can label my outrage against killing homos as a mark of mature and conservative christianity that appreciates the spirit of Christ's teachings.