Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

The same as what I wrote first up. :up:

Yeah, I went back over this thread and didn't see where you specifically address the issue of whether changing its models according to new evidence makes science more or less credible. You did say you should throw out a belief if it is falsified. I guess that suggests that you agree with me that science is made more credible by the aforementioned practice.

But you know what I did find? A post where you said "meanwhile the OP vanishes among the noise" and then 3 minutes later, I post. I was probably typing that post as you were typing that I was nowhere to be found. :p

I haven't vanished into thin air. I don't spend enough time online to respond to everything, but I'm here. If you want to put forth a counterargument that you think I've ignored/shrugged off, go for it. The only thing that I won't feel compelled to respond to is scripture because (as I'm sure you've heard before) the Bible is a claim, not evidence for a claim. Whatcha got?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Yeah, I went back over this thread and didn't see where you specifically address the issue of whether changing its models according to new evidence makes science more or less credible. You did say you should throw out a belief if it is falsified. I guess that suggests that you agree with me that science is made more credible by the aforementioned practice.
You don't see it, but you saw it.

Gee, for a guy who calls himself Logician, you're a bundle of contradictions. :chuckle:

But you know what I did find? A post where you said "meanwhile the OP vanishes among the noise" and then 3 minutes later, I post. I was probably typing that post as you were typing that I was nowhere to be found. :p
I was more referring to the noise.

If you want to put forth a counterargument that you think I've ignored/shrugged off, go for it.

Argument? :AMR:

You asked a question. I answered it.

The only thing that I won't feel compelled to respond to is scripture because (as I'm sure you've heard before) the Bible is a claim, not evidence for a claim.
:AMR:

Suit yourself. :idunno:

Whatcha got?

Evidence. Rock solid evidence.

Literally. :)
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
That's God speaking. "BESIDES ME there is no savior." Meaning there is only one savior of mankind. Yet Jesus is our Savior. That makes Him God.

Jesus said we are one with him and the Father.

Jesus does not judge unbelievers.

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world." (John 12:47)

We will judge unbelievers by Jesus' word.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER

"For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." (Colossians 1:19-20)

Let's say for the sake of discussion that all things means everything.

In other words, all sinners have been reconciled.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
"For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." (Colossians 1:19-20)

Let's say for the sake of discussion that all things means everything.

In other words, all sinners have been reconciled.
Does "all things" include the Father?

Does "all things" include Himself?

Does "all things" include the Holy Spirit?
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Jesus said we are one with him and the Father.

Jesus does not judge unbelievers.

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world." (John 12:47)

We will judge unbelievers by Jesus' word.

That verse does not say that unbelievers will not be judged.

Jesus is speaking specifically about those who He ministered to during His earthly ministry. Jesus' ministry wasn't a ministry of condemnation. Warning, sure, but condemnation wasn't the goal.

[JESUS]for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”[/JESUS] - Luke 19:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke19:10&version=NKJV

We know that also because Paul didn't contradict Jesus when he said:

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: - 2 Timothy 4:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy4:1&version=NKJV
 

Derf

Well-known member
I'm curious, did you make any effort to understand what they're talking about, or did you just Google, copy, and paste?
ScienceDaily is one of my favorite web sites. I read it regularly. I was remembering that I'd read that article, or one of several like it, and thought it fit the discussion. Does that bother you, that evolutionists give the evidence to reject evolution (as a theory that explains all of the diversity of life), but somehow don't reject it? (It should, but I doubt it does.)

And I used their own words, since they made my point for me. Why else do they feel the need to give such homage to the god of evolution, except that they might have offended him (or his memory)?
 

Derf

Well-known member
It adapts according to new evidence that is presented and not in relation to how it proves or disproves creationism. Scientists could care less what theory of biological origin is scrawled in any ancient texts. Just like a creationist doesn't pay attention to evidence, so to the scientist doesn't pay attention to ancient scripture.

Science changes its position when new evidence comes to light. That is its strength, not its weakness. It may appear less "authoritative" to people who are lost and looking for someone to tell them with certitude what is true and what is not true. But for the rest of us (who aren't lost, who don't find comfort in false certitude, who are merely looking for a more coherent understanding of the natural world) science's willingness to adapt its theories to new information demonstrates its trustworthiness.

EXAMPLE 1:

A fossilized bunny is found that disproves the current model of evolution.
Scientists: I guess the theory is wrong. Back to the drawing board.

Example 2:

A fossilized trilobite is found disproving the YEC model.
YEC: It doesn't matter what evidence comes to light. I am not changing my position.

Some people are convinced by hard-nosed certainty and inflexibility. I'm not one of them. That's why I find YECism implausible. It isn't honest in its consideration for the evidence. It is oblivious to evidence. It's position will not adapt or change no matter what is discovered. Plenty of people won't fault YECism for that, and its their right to believe what they want to believe. But me? I have my eyes open. I know the search for the truth isn't decided by whoever "sounds like they are certain."

Noble sounding words! But I expect you aren't interested in the intelligent design arguments, either, though they are looking at evidence and coming to the conclusion that an intelligence was involved in the design of creatures.

And the ID folks aren't alone in recognizing design. Evolutionists love to point out the designs "evolution" has come up with, marveling at their intricacies and complexities, and calling them "designed". It's just that the ID folks are willing to let the present be the key to the past in this areas, and say that if we only see irreducibly complex structures where there is an intelligent designer today, perhaps that has always been true.

Let me give you an example.

A man comes to the doctor's office. The doctor asks him, "What's the problem?"
"I'm dead," says the man.
"You are?" asks the doctor. "Do dead men bleed?"
"No," says the man.
The doctor jabs the man's hand with a needle, and a drop of blood appears on his hand.
"What do you think of that?" asks the doctor.
The man replies, "Well what do you know! Dead men do bleed!"

That's how scientists treat evolution: "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution". Yet time and time again, evolutionists are "surprised" and "shocked" by the results of experiments or by their findings in the field. Time and time again, the "history of <fill in the blank's> evolution" has to be rewritten. For normal theories, that would be the impetus to find a new theory. Not so evolution.

Let me give you another example. I took my daughter to the natural history museum last week. One of the docents was explaining some things about the displays in his area. After each statement, he had to say, "Well, we know this display isn't accurate anymore, because of such and such." Three displays in his area, three caveats. That's 100%!

So with a 100% failure rate on the displays, how much should I trust him when he actually made the statement above: "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"?
 

Derf

Well-known member
It's much sweeter, and has the advantage of being true.
At least until you find out it's false. But isn't that the nature of that type of Kool Aid. It is sweet to the taste, but eventually it kills. No thanks!

Go back and read it properly. You could ignore what they have published, and treat the tree / bush / whatever metaphor of life as the pathway of each species individually, with the other species counting only as 'environment' and it remains unchanged. These researchers are just trying to link up the twigs with symbiotic connections.
I'm just using their caveat to make my point. When you link of twigs on both the forking end (origin) and the free end, it's not much of a tree anymore.

That's only half of the explanation though isn't it.


I do try to set high standards, just as biologists have for the past 149 years, and that is how we have natural selection as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth. By contrast, you have nothing to offer.
Nothing to offer? Au contraire. We have life to offer--an offer from the author of life.

And it is death to reject it!
 

Jose Fly

New member
ScienceDaily is one of my favorite web sites. I read it regularly. I was remembering that I'd read that article, or one of several like it, and thought it fit the discussion. Does that bother you, that evolutionists give the evidence to reject evolution (as a theory that explains all of the diversity of life), but somehow don't reject it? (It should, but I doubt it does.)

And I used their own words, since they made my point for me. Why else do they feel the need to give such homage to the god of evolution, except that they might have offended him (or his memory)?
Then can you explain how you think those two articles constitute evidence that should cause one to reject evolution?

Also, did you deliberately skip over the other questions I asked, or did you just somehow miss them?
 
Noble sounding words! But I expect you aren't interested in the intelligent design arguments, either, though they are looking at evidence and coming to the conclusion that an intelligence was involved in the design of creatures.

I'm interested in design arguments. At the biological level, much has been explained by science. At the cosmic level, I've heard some compelling arguments, but nothing really seems to be a clincher, as in, "Yes! There is without a doubt a cosmic designer." The problem is that it is god of the gaps reasoning. People used to wonder why it rained. They were perplexed at how water could (somehow) fall from the sky. It must be God doing, they reasoned. After all, That's where God lives-- the sky. But soon someone conducted some scientific investigation and figured out that water evaporates due to heat from the sky. It gathers into rain clouds, and as the rain clouds cool, the water reverts to a liquid state and falls to the earth.

The ancients didn't realize that. Seems like a big mystery if you don't know the science. Seems like it must be God up there in the heavens making the water fall. But you and I know better than that.


A man comes to the doctor's office. The doctor asks him, "What's the problem?"
"I'm dead," says the man.
"You are?" asks the doctor. "Do dead men bleed?"
"No," says the man.
The doctor jabs the man's hand with a needle, and a drop of blood appears on his hand.
"What do you think of that?" asks the doctor.
The man replies, "Well what do you know! Dead men do bleed!"

Thanks for the chuckle. :)

That's how scientists treat evolution: "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution". Yet time and time again, evolutionists are "surprised" and "shocked" by the results of experiments or by their findings in the field. Time and time again, the "history of <fill in the blank's> evolution" has to be rewritten. For normal theories, that would be the impetus to find a new theory. Not so evolution.

It doesn't follow that just because scientists are amazed when they discover something that their theories need revision.



Let me give you another example. I took my daughter to the natural history museum last week. One of the docents was explaining some things about the displays in his area. After each statement, he had to say, "Well, we know this display isn't accurate anymore, because of such and such." Three displays in his area, three caveats. That's 100%!

So with a 100% failure rate on the displays, how much should I trust him when he actually made the statement above: "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"?

I was arguing this early in the thread. It is to its credit that science changes its position when new evidence comes to light. I'm sure as time goes on, there will be more evidence brought to light, and the theories will undergo revision. Exhibits at the museum will continue to have out-of-date displays. Such is the nature of biology.

I'm not opposed to skepticism about biology. Nobody should "believe in" science. I'm a huge fan of Socrates who said, "The only thing I know is that I know nothing." Socrates was no idiot. And certainly no fool-- quite the contrary. He didn't accept any truth based on someone's "authority"... He opened his mind to all sides of an issue, measuring the merits of each. He looked for solid arguments. He wanted to see what could be demonstrated. I'm very much the same way. The case has been made to me (for now) that evolutionary science is coherent and explains many features of the natural world. Until evidence or rational argument convinces me otherwise, I see no reason to change my position.

But I'm not passively accepting anything. I listen to arguments that challenge my current assessment of things. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm right.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Then can you explain how you think those two articles constitute evidence that should cause one to reject evolution?

Also, did you deliberately skip over the other questions I asked, or did you just somehow miss them?

I deliberately skipped over it (I only saw 2 question marks in your post, and I answered one of them). The other was sufficiently answered by Stripe.

Your questions are often tedious, and not reflecting the intent of the material they question. Like the first one above, which I'm also deliberately skipping over.
 

Jose Fly

New member
I deliberately skipped over it (I only saw 2 question marks in your post, and I answered one of them). The other was sufficiently answered by Stripe.

Your questions are often tedious, and not reflecting the intent of the material they question. Like the first one above, which I'm also deliberately skipping over.
So you're not going to explain how you think those two articles should lead us to reject evolution, and you're not going to explain your comments about natural selection.

Just empy assertions followed by "I don't have to explain anything". That's very stereotypical creationist behavior and is a good lesson in why they always lose in court and are never taken seriously by scientists.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I'm interested in design arguments. At the biological level, much has been explained by science. At the cosmic level, I've heard some compelling arguments, but nothing really seems to be a clincher, as in, "Yes! There is without a doubt a cosmic designer." The problem is that it is god of the gaps reasoning. People used to wonder why it rained. They were perplexed at how water could (somehow) fall from the sky. It must be God doing, they reasoned. After all, That's where God lives-- the sky. But soon someone conducted some scientific investigation and figured out that water evaporates due to heat from the sky. It gathers into rain clouds, and as the rain clouds cool, the water reverts to a liquid state and falls to the earth.

The ancients didn't realize that. Seems like a big mystery if you don't know the science. Seems like it must be God up there in the heavens making the water fall. But you and I know better than that.
Figuring out how a system works is not the same as figuring out how a system came to be without a designer. I strongly encourage believers to both attribute systems to the appropriate creator/designer, AND figure out how they work. I agree that we should not stop with "Goddidit", nor even to jump there too quickly. But even if we feel that way, to find out HOW He did it. That is the best way to glorify God--use these brains He gave us. Derive different designs from the ones we see of His. That is glorious work when scientists and engineers do it. But it perverts it to say it came about by chance, either the model or the resultant, human-design product, especially with so little evidence of such an origin. To say there is no God of the gaps is more foolish, and less provable, than to say there is one.

Imagine coming upon an automobile or a watch or a robot (or a dinosaur or human or the water cycle) and saying, "I don't see anybody here who could have built these things, therefore they came about by chance."

For one thing, you would be using eyes that were designed by chance to say that you can't see something--which assumes a perfect eye design that can see EVERYTHING.



Thanks for the chuckle. :)
:thumb:



It doesn't follow that just because scientists are amazed when they discover something that their theories need revision.
Amazement is different from surprise, or its weightier cousin, shock. Surprise is when you don't expect something, and it happens. Thus, it is evidence of a missed prediction. And missed predictions are indicative of a failing (or failed) theory.

I was arguing this early in the thread. It is to its credit that science changes its position when new evidence comes to light. I'm sure as time goes on, there will be more evidence brought to light, and the theories will undergo revision. Exhibits at the museum will continue to have out-of-date displays. Such is the nature of biology.
And yet, nothing can be understood except in the light of such? Of course there will be new things learned. Of course knowledge will increase. That's why it is so foolish to trust a theory that is so sure of itself that it says nothing else is possible--unless, of course, that theory is all-knowing, all powerful, and present everywhere. Do you not see the philosophical inconsistency?


I'm not opposed to skepticism about biology. Nobody should "believe in" science. I'm a huge fan of Socrates who said, "The only thing I know is that I know nothing." Socrates was no idiot. And certainly no fool-- quite the contrary. He didn't accept any truth based on someone's "authority"... He opened his mind to all sides of an issue, measuring the merits of each. He looked for solid arguments. He wanted to see what could be demonstrated. I'm very much the same way. The case has been made to me (for now) that evolutionary science is coherent and explains many features of the natural world. Until evidence or rational argument convinces me otherwise, I see no reason to change my position.
If it really explained "many features of the natural world", I would understand your position. But it possibly explains things that never happened (like a dog descending from a dogfish). It's a creation story, and no more. I'm surprised that you "believe in" it.

But I'm not passively accepting anything. I listen to arguments that challenge my current assessment of things. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm right.
I appreciate your words, and your willingness to discuss. Even the best skeptics were never skeptical enough of their own position. You do well if you remember to be so.
 

Derf

Well-known member
So you're not going to explain how you think those two articles should lead us to reject evolution, and you're not going to explain your comments about natural selection.

Just empy assertions followed by "I don't have to explain anything". That's very stereotypical creationist behavior and is a good lesson in why they always lose in court and are never taken seriously by scientists.

Ah, yes. In a philosophical discussion--this thread isn't about answering all of your questions.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Does "all things" include the Father?

Does "all things" include Himself?

Does "all things" include the Holy Spirit?

Only sinners were estranged from the Father.

Only they need the blood shed by Jesus.

The Father was never estranged from himself.

Jesus suffered estrangement for us.

The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus as human.

Jesus' Father was never estranged from himself.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Only sinners were estranged from the Father.

Only they need the blood shed by Jesus.

The Father was never estranged from himself.

Jesus suffered estrangement for us.

The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus as human.

Jesus' Father was never estranged from himself.
You said "ALL THINGS", and even emphasized that it meant, literally, everything. Therefore you must include the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So either you must include the Trinity, or "all things" doesn't woodenly literally mean "all things."
 
Top