Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

[JudgeRightly]

It depends on whether the person wants eternal life.

It's a gift, but if a person doesn't want the gift it's not given.

It was God's intent that we choose.

He tells us to choose life, but we may choose not to.

Forget what man wants for a moment, Jamie. I'm asking specifically about what God's intent was when he created man.

Here, let me make it easier for you: Before God created man, as he was planning on how to make man, was God's intent for man, something he hadn't yet created, to live forever? (Yes, he wants us to choose, but that's not what I'm asking.)

 

[Stuu]

I provided a link that says 'basically unchanged' so it looks MORE like wishful thinking to me.

I got my information from the same page. I wonder if you have read it properly.

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

Yes, we can convert matter to energy. There's a formula as to how much energy.

What's the formula for converting gravitational energy to matter?

E=mc²

Gravity is a law of physics. Who invented physics?

A simple answer to your question is Isaac Newton.

Is there a lawgiver?

From our existence, back to the existence of our atoms, there is no need for a 'lawgiver', because we are the result of the laws of physics playing out in space-time, which really amounts to the actions of gravity. So you could go back and ask whether there is a Big Bang giver. You can't go further 'back' than that, so I don't know.

The problem with a 'giver' is where does that come from?

As far 'back' as we can reasonably go, you can have a giver if you want, but there is no need for one.

I have to say, your questions are the best ones we have that directly relate to the topic of the thread, and I hope you don't mind be being entirely direct in answering them as much as I can.

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

You hate ideas. You hate opposition. You want to see it annihilated.

You're a coward.

Maybe get back to us when you have anything relevant to say regarding the topic of the thread.

Stuart

 

[Vulcan Logician]

Atoms are the building blocks of the physical universe.

Where did atoms come from?

Stuu pretty much beat me to it. See his post for the details. Or you can learn about what physicists consider a likely course of events in the early universe here: https://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe (It is a very short read.)

Of course, after seeing what Stuu has written, you might wonder where all the matter came from (the matter that cooled to form the first hydrogen and helium atoms). The answer is that it came from the energy of the big bang. But again we can wonder what the source of that energy is.



At a certain point, physicists arrive at "I don't know." Engineers are working on building high precision telescopes (like James Webb) that will solve many of the current unknowns surrounding the big bang. But even the James Webb will leave some unknowns left to discover. Maybe we will figure the whole shebang out one day, but it is also possible that the origins of the universe will be forever shrouded in mystery.

Faced with an unknown, you could place any number of cosmic figures into the blindspot. The Hindu Brahman is said to have formed the universe from the emanations of the sacred syllable "OM." The ancient Greeks thought that a bird named Nyx hatched the greater gods and the earth from a golden egg. But I don't see any reason to believe any of these stories. I see no reason to believe in a mythical bird simply because there is an unknown involved, do you? I don't see any golden egg fragments laying around

For the same reason, I don't accept the creation story in Genesis. There's no evidence for it. Show me some evidence, and I'll give it due consideration.

 

[Vulcan Logician]

God created us as rational, inquisitive beings and I think to be a Christian does not mean you have to believe in a literal 6 day, 6000 year old earth. It is completely rational to question and explore these things and anyone who just blindly believes things that are told to them without questioning the things we know, why we know and how we know...well I think that there's definitely something wrong with that.
A faith that does not stand up to questioning or falls apart when looked into deeper is not a very good faith to place your entire life and being into being committed too.

I have struggled with this for a long time and I have seen many good arguments from very faithful, Christ loving Christians on both sides. And there never will be an answer to this topic that EVERY Christian will 100% agree upon because quite frankly the Bible is not a science book, it does not give us "scientific proofs" in the way we consider scientific proofs in today's day and age - thats not the point of the Bible. But a very important aspect of the Christian faith is FAITH and that is FAITH in things not seen and faith in things that our finite human brains have not yet, or never can understand.
But Christian faith is placing your faith in a God you have not seen yet through personal expirienxe and historical eye witness accounts we know is real - Jesus Christ our Lord and God. The God who created everything in existence.
The Bible does not say that "strict belief in a 6000year old earth is the way you are saved and the way you will spend eternity with God." Belief in a 6000 year old earth requires a lot of faith - and we may never know the truth until Jesus revels it to us when we are with Him (if He chooses to do at all) and when we are finally with Him I believe we won't be worried about these things because we will be face to face with the living God and nothing will ever be the same.
But whatever way a Christian believes is not a requirement for salvation and everlasting life - if it WAS then every person who came before "modern science" might be screwed or vice versa.

I know that doesn't seem like a very satisfying answer to your question but that's what I've come up with by grappling with this for years

Your answer is satisfying in that it was an honest and humble assessment of where scripture stands in the face of science. It bothers me to no end when people try to use an old religious text to alter school curricula and stifle the intellectual curiosity of their kids. I also find myself opposed to efforts to implement religion in public policy. But that's one of the things we have to deal with in democracy. (By the same token, Christians have to put up with the rest of the population wising up to the error of mixing government and religion.)

What doesn't bother me is someone adopting a religious truth for themselves, especially for guidance in their own moral lives. What you have said is reasonable, and I respect it.

 

[Stripe]

Maybe get back to us when you have anything relevant to say regarding the topic of the thread.

Stuart

I try to deal with OP up front when I start contributing in a thread. I did so this time and got roundly ignored. Meanwhile, you hate opposition.

Coward.

 

[Stuu]

I try to deal with OP up front when I start contributing in a thread. I did so this time and got roundly ignored. Meanwhile, you hate opposition.

Coward.

Please note that I replied to your first post with points that disprove a young earth, and you never replied to that.

It's not me who is a coward.

Maybe get back to us when you have something relevant to contribute.

Stuart

 

[CabinetMaker]

Sorry,not sure what the 10% is referring to.

What I see in those data is a radical change in the youngest demographic group, one that shows that christianity and creationism are dying in the US, literally. 50% of the population overall accept some version of evolution, even if it is a god-directed version, whatever they mean by that, but that's what they believe. Add together the figures for the youngest group, and it is 65% for some kind of evolution.

I'm not complaining of course, the promotion of creationism is a form of child abuse when it is promoted in school boards, there is no question about that. In my opinion, the death of christianity is also something to be encouraged, for the sake of humanity.

Stuart

God directed evolution means that evolution is not completely random. It means that God created DNA and all the "rules" by which it operates. It means that God used DNA to create a process the we call evolution to achieve His goals, one of which is us. At its heart, it is a creationist belief. I hold this belief.

 

[Stuu]

God directed evolution means that evolution is not completely random. It means that God created DNA and all the "rules" by which it operates. It means that God used DNA to create a process the we call evolution to achieve His goals, one of which is us. At its heart, it is a creationist belief. I hold this belief.

One thing I have learned on ToL is to avoid making strawman arguments of christianity: if a poster here definies their beliefs then I try not to misrepresent them.

So now I understand what you mean by god directed evolution. But I suspect there will be a whole range of views about what that means in the population. I happen to agree with you that anything with a god in it isn't evolution, but the US is the home of creationism and a great deal of poisoning of the word evolution, so to have people concede the word evolution at all is significant. And I'd suggest that the 18-39 demographic group would have less of your version of god-directed evolution and more of a deist type of view, that a god set the whole thing off but has done nothing since: that has to go in that category as well. Of course I can't demonstrate that in this data because it is low-definition.

I'd also add, just for the record, that it is a misconception that evolution by natural selection is random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is very strongly directing.

Stuart

 

[CabinetMaker]

One thing I have learned on ToL is to avoid making strawman arguments of christianity: if a poster here definies their beliefs then I try not to misrepresent them.

So now I understand what you mean by god directed evolution. But I suspect there will be a whole range of views about what that means in the population. I happen to agree with you that anything with a god in it isn't evolution, but the US is the home of creationism and a great deal of poisoning of the word evolution, so to have people concede the word evolution at all is significant. And I'd suggest that the 18-39 demographic group would have less of your version of god-directed evolution and more of a deist type of view, that a god set the whole thing off but has done nothing since: that has to go in that category as well. Of course I can't demonstrate that in this data because it is low-definition.

I'd also add, just for the record, that it is a misconception that evolution by natural selection is random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is very strongly directing.

Stuart

Natural selection can only act on an expressed allele. Natural selection can strongly filter an expressed allele but it can do nothing about unexpressed alleles that are present. I think this is why there are so many genetic disorders that get passed on. Mutation at the gene level that results in a new allele is a random process to the best of our knowledge. Once expressed, natural selection will either select for or against that allele depending on its benefit/detriment. Evolution seems to me to be a random process with a semi-course filter.

 

[jamie]

(Reconciliation is for those who love Him

Not true.

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

It's better to go with scripture rather than make up things.

Christ loves his angels, not just humans.

 

[jamie]

Forget what man wants for a moment, Jamie. I'm asking specifically about what God's intent was when he created man.

God's intention for creating humans was to reproduce himself through children.

His children are to be his family.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nvm

 

[JudgeRightly]

God's intention for creating humans was to reproduce himself through children.

His children are to be his family.

That's not an answer to my question, Jamie.

It's a yes or no question, or you can answer "I don't know" if you can't answer it.

Here, let me make it easier for you: Before God created man, as he was planning on how to make man, was God's intent for man, something he hadn't yet created, to live forever? (Yes, he wants us to choose, but that's not what I'm asking.)

Was God intending for man to live forever when He was creating him?

 

[jamie]

A simple answer to your question is Isaac Newton.

Isaac Newton described some laws of physics, but they already existed.

Newton didn't invent those laws, they already existed.

 

[Stuu]

Natural selection can only act on an expressed allele. Natural selection can strongly filter an expressed allele but it can do nothing about unexpressed alleles that are present. I think this is why there are so many genetic disorders that get passed on. Mutation at the gene level that results in a new allele is a random process to the best of our knowledge. Once expressed, natural selection will either select for or against that allele depending on its benefit/detriment. Evolution seems to me to be a random process with a semi-course filter.

I notice you didn't use the word god in that paragraph.

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

Isaac Newton described some laws of physics, but they already existed.

Newton didn't invent those laws, they already existed.

Indeed. But your question was who invented physics?

Stuart

 

[jamie]

From our existence, back to the existence of our atoms, there is no need for a 'lawgiver', because we are the result of the laws of physics playing out in space-time, which really amounts to the actions of gravity.

Has space-time always existed or can time be measured?

You mentioned energy, can energy be created or destroyed?

Or just changed from one form to another?

Where did energy come from?

 

[jamie]

Of course, after seeing what Stuu has written, you might wonder where all the matter came from (the matter that cooled to form the first hydrogen and helium atoms). The answer is that it came from the energy of the big bang. But again we can wonder what the source of that energy is.

And we do wonder where energy came from.

Can we create energy or does it just randomly pop up?

What caused the so-called big bang?

Are we due another big bang?