WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Wow what a twist of the Word of God you are trying to fool yourself and others with.:grave:
Is the Holy Spirit Female?
- Thread starter WatchmanOnTheWall
- Start date
Wow what a twist of the Word of God you are trying to fool yourself and others with.:grave:
No, I am not like you. I admit that I missed that.
It says she in that translation because of the way gender is used in Hebrew. Read one of the links provided. Come on- it won't kill you.
Hebrew doesn't use pronouns the way English does, There is no pronoun in those verses.
I am quite aware of the facts- it is time you learned something yourself. read the links !
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
As said it's you who can't read; I already told you I've read your links and I gave you a response to them. And if you can read the OP I said that every pronoun given for the Holy Spirit in the OT is female. Everyone can see that why can't you? Is it because you can't read properly?
One more time: There are no pronouns. And all nouns in Hebrew have gender. Yes, the word for "wind" or "spirit" in Hebrew (same word) is female in gender. I have already stated that. That doesn't make the wind a female person. It is just a noun in the female gender. Like "ground".
And your arrogance is well noted.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Some how I don't think it is just 'one more time'- because of your arrogance.
Now lets look at what you just said; you agree that wind and ground have the female Hebrew pronoun 'she' but when the Holy Spirit is called is given the same female 'she' pronoun in Hebrew you believe that somehow that means the Holy Spirit is male. In every other language it would mean female but you think this is some Hebrew twist or word play? No it's not, it says she because she is a she. That's how Hebrew pronouns work, same as any other language.
RealityJerk
New member
I believe the Holy Spirit is indeed feminine. The Godhead, is comprised of Father, Mother/Spirit and Son/Logos. We were created in God's own image, male and female. Most Christians make heaven a very masculine place. God is Father/Masculine, who has a Son/Masculine, who has a bunch of male angels serving His kingdom. The truth is that the earthly masculine and feminine is a reflection of the heavenly masculine and feminine. We have a heavenly Father and a heavenly Mother, but the early Catholic church, eliminated that teaching.
No. I have stated repeatedly that there is no pronoun in those verses.
I have never said that the holy spirit is male. Again- there is no pronoun there. The text does not say "she" in the original. Your linear translation put that in to indicate gender. Did you notice how other translations, even on that same site, don't have a pronoun?
Please note: I am not Christian. I am Jewish. The idea of the Holy Spirit being a person of any sex is foreign to me. I am fluent in reading both Modern and Biblical Hebrew. I speak Modern Hebrew every day, as I live in Israel.
I said
I can see the problem. Context context. Have you ever looked up the word folly?
2 Cor 11:1-2
1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly-- and indeed you do bear with me.
2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
(NKJ)
877 aphrosune (af-ros-oo'-nay);
from 878; senselessness, i.e. (euphem.) egotism; (morally) recklessness:
KJV-- folly, foolishly (-ness).
It also fits with wild imagination.
And in Eph That is to married men and their wives.
I said
The Holy Spirit carries Gods Word. If God says let there be light there is light. If God says let her be pregnant she will be pregnant.
Yes, the idea of the female Shekhinah appears in Kabbalistic Judaism. I should have mentioned that myself.
You can have a female "Holy Spirit", if you like. You can do what you like with the Trinity. I am not part of that discussion (not being Christian). I was only pointing out that Watchman is using Old Testament verses incorrectly.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
It says she because that is what is in the original text, just because you can't read or just want to ignore it for your own personal bizarre reason makes no sense, just like your argument that reduces the Holy Spirit to an inanimate object:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
Job 33:4
רוּח
ruch
spirit-of
אֵ ל
al
El
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
וְ נִ שְׁ מַ ת
u·nshmth
and breath of
שַׁ דַּ י
shdi
Who Suffices
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Rather than lowering yourself to childish personal attacks try debating the OP, the Holy Spirit is called she every time in the OT here read:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
Job 33:4
רוּח
ruch
spirit-of
אֵ ל
al
El
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
וְ נִ שְׁ מַ ת
u·nshmth
and breath of
שַׁ דַּ י
shdi
Who Suffices
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit is described as she every time in the Old Testament:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
Job 33:4
רוּח
ruch
spirit-of
אֵ ל
al
El
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
וְ נִ שְׁ מַ ת
u·nshmth
and breath of
שַׁ דַּ י
shdi
Who Suffices
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
It doesn't. There is someone here who can't read, and it isn't me. At least when it comes to Hebrew.
You may want to take a look at the introduction to the linear translation, which explains this.
" Person, number, and gender. The person, number, and gender of all finite verbs are indicated by the use of pronouns as subjects, even when the subject is expressed by means of a noun or independent pronoun (e.g., Gen. 1:1 אלהים ברא [bra aleim], 'he-created God')."
Can you point to the Hebrew word that is "she" in the text? Don't you wonder why the pronoun doesn't appear in normal translations?
Since you don't trust me on this- go ask a Hebrew expert. A teacher, a professor. You are dependent on translations, which is problematic.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Well I don't speak Hebrew (or live in Israel) I am very envious of you on both counts. I've read the introduction and looked at the chart but I will not pretend that I understand it fully. I may well go find someone who does speak Hebrew and ask them (although this won't be easy). I can see the prefix 'ni' but am only guessing the jot or tittle ' is what makes it a female pronoun?:
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
I said
Where do you get personal attack??? I was showing you that Paul was using "folly" a wild exaggeration.
Tigger 2
Active member
'Holy Spirit' in the NT Greek text is neuter and therefore the neuter pronouns meaning 'it,' 'itself,' are used with it in the NT Greek!
Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use 'it' for the holy spirit. Since it is really not a person, but God's active force -or power-, a literal translation would be helpful in this case.
'Holy spirit' in the OT Hebrew text is in the feminine gender.
"a 1. The Hebrew, like all Semitic languages, recognizes only two genders in the noun, a masculine and a feminine. Inanimate objects and abstract ideas, which other languages sometimes indicate by the neuter,
are regarded in Hebrew as masculine or feminine, more often the latter [feminine]"! - Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, p. 222, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1910. (also seventeenth edition)
So, in the NT 'holy spirit' is neuter. And in the OT it is feminine (which is often used for neuter).
And when we combine these two, we find that 'holy spirit' is certainly not in the masculine gender, but, instead, is neuter!
"On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary.
"The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone" - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967.
"In the NT there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity. The spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), p. 344.
"It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.
Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use 'it' for the holy spirit. Since it is really not a person, but God's active force -or power-, a literal translation would be helpful in this case.
'Holy spirit' in the OT Hebrew text is in the feminine gender.
"a 1. The Hebrew, like all Semitic languages, recognizes only two genders in the noun, a masculine and a feminine. Inanimate objects and abstract ideas, which other languages sometimes indicate by the neuter,
are regarded in Hebrew as masculine or feminine, more often the latter [feminine]"! - Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, p. 222, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1910. (also seventeenth edition)
So, in the NT 'holy spirit' is neuter. And in the OT it is feminine (which is often used for neuter).
And when we combine these two, we find that 'holy spirit' is certainly not in the masculine gender, but, instead, is neuter!
"On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary.
"The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone" - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967.
"In the NT there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity. The spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), p. 344.
"It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.
