Krsto
Well-known member
I would love to comment but I think we are hijacking this thread (not that I have EVER done such a thing)
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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I would love to comment but I think we are hijacking this thread (not that I have EVER done such a thing)
Exactly. This is a salvific, essential issue, unlike views on hell.
There is a biblical, theological view of the Deity of Christ and a liberal idea of the divinity of Christ that denies the truth.
http://www.the-highway.com/deityTOC_Machen.html
godrulz,
God is Spirit.
Jesus is a man, fathered by God through Mary.
God came and dwelt in Jesus at His baptism.(not permanently)
Jesus the man died in His own faith in His Father.
Jesus was raised from the dead by His Father.
The Father raised Jesus to His Throne and gave Him all power over all of the Fathers creation, which He has yet to exercise all of.
It is so simple.
LA
Krsto
Well-known member
Are you lumping me in with the liberals that Mâchen speaks of? If so you don't know what I believe. All you can do is recite your mantra which doesn't apply.
Liberals deny the Deity of Christ as do pseudo-Christian cults. If you reduce Christ to creature instead of worshipping Him as YHWH/Almighty God in the flesh, then you are no better off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NIi-uHYhRSw
This powerful message is a sham if He is not God. If He is, you better bow and worship Him as YHWH (Phil. 2:5-11 Lord=YHWH, the name above all names also used of Jesus).
Aimiel
Well-known member
Sure we can...
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I'm sure Lazarus testified to those around him that this actually took place. Jesus wasn't just telling a story, but He used this story to bring home the fact that hell is real and we know He wouldn't joke around about such things. He's trying to get us to realize the truth that judgment is coming for those who do not believe. He wouldn't use such an illustration for us if hell were just 'destruction' as those who reject Scripture want us to believe.
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I'm sure Lazarus testified to those around him that this actually took place. Jesus wasn't just telling a story, but He used this story to bring home the fact that hell is real and we know He wouldn't joke around about such things. He's trying to get us to realize the truth that judgment is coming for those who do not believe. He wouldn't use such an illustration for us if hell were just 'destruction' as those who reject Scripture want us to believe.
Here's the thing Aimiel. We know what the penalty for sin is. The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death. So we know for sure that the penalty for sin is death. That means that if anyone thinks that the penalty for sin is something other than death, eternal torment in hell or a $50 fine, we know that they are wrong, because the wages of sin is death, not a $50 dollar fine OR Eternal Torment in Hell.
So quote all the parables you want, jump up and down, say that I'm Heretic, do whatever you want. The Gospel Truth is that there is eternal life in Christ or death without Christ. There is no eternal life in Hell without Christ being tormented alive forever. We are not rejecting scripture by believing that the penalty for sin is destruction JUST AS THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES.
So quote all the parables you want, jump up and down, say that I'm Heretic, do whatever you want. The Gospel Truth is that there is eternal life in Christ or death without Christ. There is no eternal life in Hell without Christ being tormented alive forever. We are not rejecting scripture by believing that the penalty for sin is destruction JUST AS THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES.
I just want to ask you about those scriptures that you are talking about. You say that Scriptures clearly show you that eternal conscious torment is a reality for many. But when I ask you to show me the scriptures that say the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment, you never do. Would you PLEASE show the scripture that "clearly" shows that people will be in eternal torment in hell forever when they die? It's only fair. I've shown you scripture after scripture that supports what I'm telling you, only to have you overlook what they say.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I cannot show you Scriptures that you deny mean what they obviously mean. I cannot open your eyes. You have turned away from Truth unto fables. You have what you seek with your itching ears.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, it is... and after death comes judgment... after judgment comes eternal conscious torment. Scripture doesn't lie. You do.
Scripture doesn't lie, I am quoting scripture, I am not lying. It is typical of you to accuse me of lying without any proof at all. According to the Bible, the result of the Judgment after the first death is the second death, for sinners. Only those who have received eternal life from Jesus Christ receive eternal life. Those who have rejected Jesus Christ do not receive eternal life. If they are conscious of torment for all eternity, then they would also have to have eternal life. They do not. So you can see, I am not lying.
But enough of this talk about lying. Simply post the scripture that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die, where they will be tormented alive for all eternity. IF YOU CAN. If you can't, then admit that you can't.
The wages of sin is eternal mindless discussion threads.
You can't show me any scripture verse that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they will be tormented forever because there is NO VERSE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS THIS. You believe a FABLE that is not in the Bible, If I have itching ears, what do you have? You believe in ECT even though there is not ONE verse that says this. Your itching ears want to believe in eternal conscious torment for some reason.
Obviously, I can't open your eyes either. But you could try to believe the Bible that you claim to believe. Read John 3:16 and tell me that nobody perishes, that everyone has eternal life either in heavenly bliss or hellish torment. The Bible says there are two opposite outcomes, either you have eternal life or you perish.
I will not believe your false doctrine, because I believe the Bible. Only Satan says "Surely you will not die". I'm sorry that you have fallen for literally the oldest lie in the Book.