Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[glorydaz]

You should acquaint yourself with the original texts or read the linked battle royale where Logos X explains how such translations came into being.

Although I'll expect you'll do neither.

He doesn't want to actually delve into this topic. There's a reason there is such disagreement among professing believers. They are simply stuck in a rut they picked up from somewhere along the way. Even the word eternal is in dispute. Christians are bad about preaching one thing while denying the other half of same.

 

[Arthur Brain]

make the argument if you have one

It's all there dude, you just have to click and read.

 

[ok doser]

It's all there dude, you just have to click and read.

iow, you don't have an argument, you have logos' argument

ok - for my rebuttal, go read all of thomas aquinas' works

 

[glorydaz]

does He forgive those who turn from unbelief to belief but remain obstinately unrepentant?

Unrepentant is unbelieving. So, your question makes no sense.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Really? Nothing is impossible with God.

God can't do the impossible.

God WON'T do something that would be counterproductive to His will.

God's will is that all repent.

Automatic forgiveness keeps people from Christ.

God forgives us when we believe the Gospel of Salvation.

When we turn from unbelief to belief.

That would be considered repentance, and is in line with what Jesus said.

Rebuke, and if he repents, forgive.

Thus:

Rebuke, and if he does not repent, do not forgive.

 

[glorydaz]

iow, you don't have an argument, you have logos' argument

ok - for my rebuttal, go read all of thomas aquinas' works

If you'd try some kind of substantive questions and answers, instead of all this useless drivel, we might actually be able to discuss the topic at hand.

 

[ok doser]

If you'd try some kind of substantive questions and answers, ....

i asked artie for his position

that seemed to me like a substantive question



he punted

 

[Arthur Brain]

He doesn't want to actually delve into this topic. There's a reason there is such disagreement among professing believers. They are simply stuck in a rut they picked up from somewhere along the way. Even the word eternal is in dispute. Christians are bad about preaching one thing while denying the other half of same.

I know he doesn't, because it means actually questioning doctrine and putting things under scrutiny, hardly something encouraged in many evangelical circles. Sure wasn't encouraged when I questioned things while in church, anything but. "Bible study" consisted of "this is what this passage means" for the most part.

 

[ok doser]

.... we might actually be able to discuss the topic at hand.

the topic at hand is "Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?"

the answer is yes

/thread

 

[ok doser]

tam closed timmy's dopey thread six years ago:

Yep.


Revelation 14 KJV
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

/thread

 

[Arthur Brain]

iow, you don't have an argument, you have logos' argument

ok - for my rebuttal, go read all of thomas aquinas' works

Everything, where it comes to how the doctrine of "hell" etc came into being is encapsulated by logos X in those two opening posts. If you can't be bothered to read and educate yourself as I did then that's on you.

Keep with a doctrine that panders to your inclinations if you want. It's no surprise, far from it.

 

[ok doser]

tam closed timmy's dopey thread six years ago:



/thread

that's why artie has to personalize it - he can't argue it on a scriptural basis, so he argues it on an emotional basis, accusing those who he opposes of lacking empathy and compassion.


kinda surprises me that you missed that glory :nono:

 

[glorydaz]

God can't do the impossible.

God WON'T do something that would be counterproductive to His will.

God's will is that all repent.

Automatic forgiveness keeps people from Christ.



That would be considered repentance, and is in line with what Jesus said.

Rebuke, and if he repents, forgive.

Thus:

Rebuke, and if he does not repent, do not forgive.

You're taking our Lord's admonition to us for forgiving other men's trespasses against US, and using it as some criteria that binds God Himself. I'd watch out saying what was impossible for God, were I you.

Speaking of salvation....

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.​

 

[ok doser]

Everything, where it comes to how the doctrine of "hell" etc came into being is encapsulated by logos X in those two opening posts. If you can't be bothered to read and educate yourself as I did ...

if you "educated" yourself, then you should understand it well enough to argue it

 

[Aimiel]

I know he doesn't, because it means actually questioning doctrine and putting things under scrutiny, hardly something encouraged in many evangelical circles. Sure wasn't encouraged when I questioned things while in church, anything but. "Bible study" consisted of "this is what this passage means" for the most part.

I don't know what church you went to but every one I've ever been in encouraged questions, of any type. We ought to be free to ask anything we feel the need to understand or else we're stifling growth. I like TOL for just that reason: no one will shut down a thread or delete a post because a question is too probing or too hard to answer. This is a good place to ask and to learn. I've learned a thing or two from just about everyone I've ever had any discourse with on here. I've also often been humbled by my own lack of knowledge, but faithful are the wounds of a friend. Iron sharpens iron. Telling someone they shouldn't ask questions is just like the corporate machine committing planned obsolescence: it's the end of progress. A student can't learn if they don't have answers. Technology cannot make progress if a manufacturer makes things to fail.

 

[Arthur Brain]

tam closed timmy's dopey thread six years ago:



/thread

If she had then why are you still in it and feel the need to proclaim closure when there obviously wasn't any?

:idunno:

 

[ok doser]

You're taking our Lord's admonition to us for forgiving other men's trespasses against US, and using it as some criteria that binds God Himself.

are you suggesting that God would guide us to act against His nature? :freak:

 

[ok doser]

I don't know what church you went to ....

do you ever get the feeling that he's just a total fraud, a troll, that none of what he presents as his past is true?

 

[glorydaz]

tam closed timmy's dopey thread six years ago:



/thread

I didn't see anyone talking about "timmy's dopey thread".

It certainly wasn't the thread Artie referred me to.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't know what church you went to but every one I've ever been in encouraged questions, of any type. We ought to be free to ask anything we feel the need to understand or else we're stifling growth. I like TOL for just that reason: no one will shut down a thread or delete a post because a question is too probing or too hard to answer. This is a good place to ask and to learn. I've learned a thing or two from just about everyone I've ever had any discourse with on here. I've also often been humbled by my own lack of knowledge, but faithful are the wounds of a friend. Iron sharpens iron. Telling someone they shouldn't ask questions is just like the corporate machine committing planned obsolescence: it's the end of progress. A student can't learn if they don't have answers. Technology cannot make progress if a manufacturer makes things to fail.

Okay, maybe a bit blunter than things happened to be but in essence any questioning led to the same answer. I questioned an eternal hell of suffering by way of and it was tolerated to begin with but after a while it wasn't. As far as the leaders of youth groups and the elders etc it was "scriptural" and that was an end to it. They weren't too comfortable when it was pointed out that they couldn't all agree on what it was through said scripture but eternal suffering of some sort was obviously there so it came to a crux. Either I accepted that or there was little point in remaining at said church. We kinda agreed on that and I left.