ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
must...resist...channeling... inner...slim pickens/taggert
i understood some of that
i'll chew on the rest when i come back
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
must...resist...channeling... inner...slim pickens/taggert
i understood some of that
i'll chew on the rest when i come back
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Oh, you're free to report as much as you will, just as you're free to project a not altogether unexpected passive aggressive post tactic about things being personalized towards you.
Almost borders on pathological cliché to the point of being redundant.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What "law" is that exactly?
Are the fruits of the spirit laden upon everyone's heart in turn?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i don't know what i could say in response that you wouldn't take exception to :idunno:
The knowledge of good and evil.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Oh, I wouldn't expect you to so no worries.
Interesting. Is it good to endorse obvious misrepresentations of other posters positions on matters like this subject, ya know, just out of curiosity?
:think:
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Grace is for sin itself as the state of being and condition of man (not to be confused with any resulting acts from acting as established actions). Mercy is for the consequences of sin brought forth into action, and is administered to remove or curtail consequences and/or give strength to bear up under those consequences.
Salvation is ontological, meaning the human hypostasis (individual substanding personal reality of existence) is translated into Christ via hypostatic union (just as Christ’s humanity and divinity are joined), thereby causing man’s internal resurrection unto spiritual life to have communion and the status of partaking of the divine nature through Christ alone (because His divinity and humanity are inseparable and unmixed, illustrating why Christology is a vital aspect of belief).
The lost and unbelieving have no such means of having their ontology changed. No spiritual resurrection in this physical life. So their physical resurrection is devoid of spiritual life. Death is cessation of communion with environment of origin, not annihilation, etc. So this aeviternal state of being for the spiritually unresurrected is an everlasting specific kind of separation from the Lord (Christ, who is God).
This means that there is no means of administering grace; for grace is the divine influence of God’s nature upon man’s own, and there is no means for the unredeemed to partake of the divine nature as their ontology is not translated via hypostatic union (by the hypostasis of faith). Therefore, there is no functional manner in which grace is available to those who have died without Christ. The functionalities are beyond the parameters of divine order for the creation. (And this is why there is urgency for salvation in this physical life.)
So what remains is God’s mercy enduring forever on behalf of those who are in His presence (enopion), but not in the prosopon (presence) of Christ by ontological joinging of hypostases (sons as joint heirs by the spirit of adoption). This mercy gives the unbelieving the ability to bear up under the aeviternal state of being they are in by default. It cuts short the worst consequences and is the only means of them being able to endure their everlasting existence of not being in Christ while still being outwardly in the presence of God.
So even the self-inflicted torment of the lake of fire is bearable because of God’s enduring and unending mercy. Though not in the sense it is for the redeemed at all, this is still a gradient of “salvation” for the unredeemed compared to what their everlasting existence would be apart from it. God’s mercy is the ONLY thing that keeps the torment from being the torture that so many accuse of God, and it being a verb.
Torment is a state of being, not the action that God takes toward those in the lake of fire. And God has mercy upon that state of being for all aeviternity. Forever. It’s His very nature to be and do that. But there is no functionality in creation for anything else, for the divine order was violated in the beginning; and every man is culpable for their own condition after frustrating grace.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
no artie, it's a grossly heinous evil, more wicked than raping children and eating live puppies
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'd like to say I could follow all that, but instead I'd like to focus on this part....which seems to be what we're talking about here. What exactly do you mean by a gradient of salvation?
And what do you make of this text?
When God shall be all in all?
1 Cor. 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Knock it off, Doser. You're grossing me out.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
In the presence (enopion) of God rather than in the presence (prosopon) of Christ. Before Him, rather than in Christ.
It’s not a spatial consideration. It’s a qualitative condition/state of being; and there is no perichoresis (the interpenetrating conjoining of humanity that only Believers have in the lapsed cosmos, and is not available to those who are not in Christ). This perichoresis was originally divine order for humanity in creation and was abrogated at the “fall” in the garden.
God is the consuming fire (puros), and the aeviternal state of being for the unredeemed is to be in this fire but not in Christ. The fire is the means of God administering mercy.
Yes, that’s the typology for God as a consuming fire. Humanity is in a lower form of that image, so the human hypostasis is never consumed. It’s not physical.
Forgiveness (aphiemi) means to set apart, in the sense of setting one’s offenses apart from them to be able to have love and compassion; for their actions have hurt and destroyed them even more than anyone they sin against, as they will be culpable for the very state of being that produced/es all the acting and actions.
So the lost still being the presence (enopion) of God and experiencing the flames of the fire (puros) is indeed not only mercy but forgiveness. But there is nowhere external to themselves for the sins to be set apart, as Christ already bore them on the cross in His physical life and death. So it is the flames alone that administer any separation from the effects of their state of being. The torment is living with their sin instead of it all being upon Christ and resting in Him.
No. But according to divine order in creation, the functionalities established have limitations based upon ontology. Someone must be in Christ (by hypsotatic union) to have their sins fully set apart from them.
Not at all. But the unredeemed do not have any ontological means of having their sin set apart from them, and God cannot abide sin within Him. He’s not compatible with that privation and somethinglessness, for He is whole and complete with no void or lack. He is the all in all. So those who are separated from the prosopon (presence) of Christ are still receiving God’s mercy in the only manner available to them. (Ontologically, God cannot by nature - and will not by volition - take into Himself that which is contrary to His divine nature.)
This is God’s omni-benevolence. And it stands in stark contrast to Him being accused of being a heartless and loveless torturing monster.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Knock it off Doser. You need to stay on topic.
He's on topic.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
:thumb:
which is, i believe, and at the risk of committing a heinous wickedness, the strawman artie was fronting
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Though the unredeemed are not saved as we know salvation, they are “saved” from a greater torment than they will endure; and all because of God’s mercy.
The unredeemed are not “the all”, which is the opposite of what Enscausasui was alleging with Univeralism.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
way 2 go
Well-known member
condemnation , compassion
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What "greater torment" would that be without God's mercy exactly and why is it not possible that God can actually subject all back unto Him?