Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[glorydaz]

1Ti 4:10
(10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

It says that there is a Saviour of all men (specially of those that believe.) If you are saying that K-Rose has no saviour because she is not among all men (because she is a woman) then by the same measure, neither do you have a savior. Would you like to retract that statement?

No, in fact I'll double down on it. That living God IS the Saviour of all men, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.​

The LORD says, "beside me there is no saviour".

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.​

And is NOW MADE MANIFEST by the appearing of our SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

2 Timothy 1:9-11
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:​

You folks missed the fact that God became flesh and dwelt among us. The Lord our God is ONE LORD. Right there in front of your faces, but you deny Him. You have no Saviour because you deny He is God.

 

[glorydaz]

When the ignorance seems less likely to be because of intelligence and more likely with the objective of starting a fight, then yes, I think it is a shade more tactful.

Yeah, well "tact" is hypocrite speak for lying.

 

[glorydaz]

Way 2 Go, when you accuse a person of "saying Jesus was a liar" the burden of proof rests on you to provide evidence. When you provide no evidence, that makes you the liar. You lack credibility, that is fact. And I don't think you are as stupid as you pretend to be - I think you pretend for the purpose of leveling false accusations.



Trees are also real things, yet they are invoked in parables, yet when a mustard tree is referenced in a parable, it is not relating a real story about a specific tree. Jesus spoke in parable, his story fits the pattern of parable, it was preceded by parable, and the use of elements within a fictional story called parable is not a lie, Way 2 Go.

Now it's your turn to pretend ignorance of what the word "parable" means and chant "you said Jesus lied." There's nothing new in your argument from the past year.

There are such things as mustard seeds. All his parables were based on fact....not some "Jewish fable" as you said.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Mark 2:5-7


5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The entire reason the pharisees crucified Christ was because they knew He called Himself God.

 

[glorydaz]

Devils usually have aims of their own amusement when they answer summons. They like to harass, to discourage, to falsely accuse, to name-call, and many delight in causing strife or misery. Devils are individual free-willed creations and as such their exact tastes and approaches may vary.

Do you deny that devils exists?
Do you deny that they are free willed creations?
Do you deny that they are spirits?
Do you deny that they roam the earth, seeking whom they might devour?
Do you deny that they accuse the brethren?

You don't need to know their true objectives to obey the commandment to have no part in necromancy or witchcraft. God had already lifted any protection from Saul when evil spirits were sent to plague him. What motive did the evil spirits have in causing Saul grief then? Do you think Saul suddenly fell under protection when he sought after the witch?

Satan and his demons have no power except what the Lord allows them to have.

The "demon" who you claim appeared to Saul, did nothing to comfort Saul, or to encourage Saul to turn from God, or to do any evil whatsoever. You can give demons credit and power for whatever your imagination can come up with, but the scripture did not say Samuel was an evil spirit or a demon. When God sent an evil spirit to plague Paul, He also had that evil spirit leave Saul.

You keep grasping at straws....vain imaginings. But, you ignore what is clearly written.

 

[Rosenritter]

No, in fact I'll double down on it. That living God IS the Saviour of all men, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.​

The LORD says, "beside me there is no saviour".

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.​

And is NOW MADE MANIFEST by the appearing of our SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

2 Timothy 1:9-11
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:​

You folks missed the fact that God became flesh and dwelt among us. The Lord our God is ONE LORD. Right there in front of your faces, but you deny Him. You have no Saviour because you deny He is God.

"You folks?" "You have no Saviour because you deny he is God?" Whom are you speaking to G-Daz? (that's a real question).

But let me remind you of something: if K-Rose lacks understanding, is it not your charge to bring her closer to the fold, rather than attacking her with bared claws and fangs? About your approach, I think our Savior said something about millstones, and being thrown into the ocean. The goats of the parable claimed that they served Jesus, and he turned to them and said "I know ye not" - do you think he approves of you attempting to drive his children away?

 

[glorydaz]

Mark 2:5-7


5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The entire reason the pharisees crucified Christ was because they knew He called Himself God.

Indeed, I love that verse that says they fell over backwards when He said He was I AM. They knew exactly what he was saying. In fact all the I AM statements....I AM the bread of life, I AM the Door, the way, the life, and the truth.

John 18:6 CJB
6 When he said, “I AM,” they went backward from him and fell to the ground.​

 

[Angel4Truth]

Satan and his demons have no power except what the Lord allows them to have.

The "demon" who you claim appeared to Saul, did nothing to comfort Saul, or to encourage Saul to turn from God, or to do any evil whatsoever. You can give demons credit and power for whatever your imagination can come up with, but the scripture did not say Samuel was an evil spirit or a demon. When God sent an evil spirit to plague Paul, He also had that evil spirit leave Saul.

You keep grasping at straws....vain imaginings. But, you ignore what is clearly written.

He should know that, im guessing hes seventh day adventist and this is what they teach about this issue:

Set aside the phrase “from the Lord” for a second and focus instead on the part of the verse that says, “The spirit of the Lord departed from Saul.” That would be the Holy Spirit, right? The Holy Spirit came upon David and left Saul. When God’s Spirit goes out of a person, the devil’s spirit goes in. Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 that “He that is not with me is against me.” Nobody is neutral. Everyone has varying degrees of either God’s Spirit or the spirit of the enemy. To the same extent that we empty ourselves of self, God can fill us with His Spirit.

When the Bible says that “a spirit from the Lord” troubled Saul, it doesn’t mean that God said, “I’ve got a devil I’m going to give to you.” As evidence, look at the story of Job. When the devil came to the Lord and wanted to plague Job, he couldn’t do anything until after God had withdrawn His protection from him. After God withdrew his protection from Job, He said, “He is in thine hand; but save his life,” (Job 2:6). The next verse in the New King James Version goes on to say, “So Satan went out from the presence of the Lor d, and struck Job with painful boils.”

When the Bible says that an evil spirit came from the Lord, it means that God withdrew His protection from Saul after Saul rejected Him. When God withdrew His protection from Saul, these devils were allowed to bring a depression upon him. The Bible says that “God … will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV).

This really means that although God will allow you to be tempted, He’s not doing the tempting. James 1:13 (NKJV) says, “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.” God allows temptation to come in order to strengthen our characters, but He doesn’t send it.

Does God Really Send Evil Spirits?

 

[Rosenritter]

Satan and his demons have no power except what the Lord allows them to have.

The "demon" who you claim appeared to Saul, did nothing to comfort Saul, or to encourage Saul to turn from God, or to do any evil whatsoever. You can give demons credit and power for whatever your imagination can come up with, but the scripture did not say Samuel was an evil spirit or a demon. When God sent an evil spirit to plague Paul, He also had that evil spirit leave Saul.

You keep grasping at straws....vain imaginings. But, you ignore what is clearly written.

Why would the devil need to ask Saul to turn from God? Hello, G-daz? Saul was departed about as far as he could go already. And of course the devil did nothing to comfort Saul... why would he comfort someone whom he would delight in causing distress and torment?

Do you even read what you're replying to?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Why would the devil need to ask Saul to turn from God? Hello, G-daz? Saul was departed about as far as he could go already. And of course the devil did nothing to comfort Saul... why would he comfort someone whom he would delight in causing distress and torment?

Do you even read what you're replying to?

Did you even read what she said?

 

[Rosenritter]

He should know that, im guessing hes seventh day adventist and this is what they teach about this issue:

Does God Really Send Evil Spirits?

I suppose that King James I, Martin Luther, and John Calvin are Seventh Day Adventists also by that measure then? Would you like to try addressing the issue, rather than casting irrelevant (and uninformed, and mistaken) aspersions that someone must be a member of this group or that group?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I suppose that King James I, Martin Luther, and John Calvin are Seventh Day Adventists also by that measure then? Would you like to try addressing the issue, rather than casting irrelevant (and uninformed, and mistaken) aspersions that someone must be a member of this group or that group?

Whether you are or not, what is written there completely answers your concern - what you are saying isnt biblical - care to take issue with what is written here?
Im not SDA but i agree with this commentary on this issue.

Set aside the phrase “from the Lord” for a second and focus instead on the part of the verse that says, “The spirit of the Lord departed from Saul.” That would be the Holy Spirit, right? The Holy Spirit came upon David and left Saul. When God’s Spirit goes out of a person, the devil’s spirit goes in. Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 that “He that is not with me is against me.” Nobody is neutral. Everyone has varying degrees of either God’s Spirit or the spirit of the enemy. To the same extent that we empty ourselves of self, God can fill us with His Spirit.

When the Bible says that “a spirit from the Lord” troubled Saul, it doesn’t mean that God said, “I’ve got a devil I’m going to give to you.” As evidence, look at the story of Job. When the devil came to the Lord and wanted to plague Job, he couldn’t do anything until after God had withdrawn His protection from him. After God withdrew his protection from Job, He said, “He is in thine hand; but save his life,” (Job 2:6). The next verse in the New King James Version goes on to say, “So Satan went out from the presence of the Lor d, and struck Job with painful boils.”

When the Bible says that an evil spirit came from the Lord, it means that God withdrew His protection from Saul after Saul rejected Him. When God withdrew His protection from Saul, these devils were allowed to bring a depression upon him. The Bible says that “God … will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV).

This really means that although God will allow you to be tempted, He’s not doing the tempting. James 1:13 (NKJV) says, “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.” God allows temptation to come in order to strengthen our characters, but He doesn’t send it.

This is pretty clear

 

[Rosenritter]

Did you even read what she said?

Would you like to attempt to glean what you think the meaning and points were from her post, and present them in a logical manner? The essence that she had was that "that ghost could not have been the devil, because the devil has no motive in tormenting Saul." Devil's don't need additional motive to torment those whom God has removed his protection from.

 

[glorydaz]

"You folks?" "You have no Saviour because you deny he is God?" Whom are you speaking to G-Daz? (that's a real question).

But let me remind you of something: if K-Rose lacks understanding, is it not your charge to bring her closer to the fold, rather than attacking her with bared claws and fangs? About your approach, I think our Savior said something about millstones, and being thrown into the ocean. The goats of the parable claimed that they served Jesus, and he turned to them and said "I know ye not" - do you think he approves of you attempting to drive his children away?

Bared claws and fangs? Such drama.

Don't lecture me, you hypocrite. I see your fangs through your clenched teeth ("tact"), and I see your pointy ears when you encourage cult members to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. KR is not here to be brought "closer to the fold", you fool. She is here to make others the "child of hell" she is herself.

Matt. 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matt. 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.​

 

[Rosenritter]

Yeah, well "tact" is hypocrite speak for lying.

Your mood is an extra-degree vile today, isn't it?

 

[Rosenritter]

Bared claws and fangs? Such drama.

Don't lecture me, you hypocrite. I see your fangs through your clenched teeth ("tact"), and I see your pointy ears when you encourage cult members to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. KR is not here to be brought "closer to the fold", you fool. She is here to make others the "child of hell" she is herself.

Matt. 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matt. 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.​

When you have the gall to tell a human on this planet that they have no saviour, you are an enemy of the cross. Let's set aside tact, you're working on the side of the devil at that point.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Would you like to attempt to glean what you think the meaning and points were from her post, and present them in a logical manner? The essence that she had was that "that ghost could not have been the devil, because the devil has no motive in tormenting Saul." Devil's don't need additional motive to torment those whom God has removed his protection from.

You are confusing that which tormented Saul, and the "ghost" of Samuel.

They arent the same. One was Samuel in spirit - not a 'ghost' and not a devil.

Those tormenting Saul were devils who needed the same permission from God that those tormenting Job needed.

The confusion from what im seeing, is yours, slow down and read a little more carefully.

 

[Angel4Truth]

When you have the gall to tell a human on this planet that they have no saviour, you are an enemy of the cross. Let's set aside tact, you're working on the side of the devil at that point.

Muslims have no savior - they are not saved, even though they claim Christ, just like the JWs who don't know Him.

Christ is not who they say He is, and He seeks those to worship in Spirit and Truth. Slapping His name on whatever - doesnt make it saved, anymore than me walking into the garage makes me a car.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you know what the term "feigned ignorance" means? From the way you are talking it sounds like you think it means something else. It's not the same as "fool" - it's different entirely.

Foolish. It's a false accusation. Did that go over your head? Do you know what a false accusation is?

Do you claim it's better to make a false accusation against someone than to call someone a name?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Rosenritter]

Whether you are or not, what is written there completely answers your concern - what you are saying isnt biblical - care to take issue with what is written here?
Im not SDA but i agree with this commentary on this issue.

This is pretty clear

All of those figures I mentioned addressed the topic with scriptural means. I am not the only person who has used the Bible to demonstrate the ghost of Samuel was not the prophet Samuel, but a demonic impostor. I welcome you to address this on biblical grounds, rather than "I say it is not biblical" anytime. You are free to use any website(s) you choose for research, but know the topic well enough to use your own words. I'm not chasing after a website.