Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

It is because God had instructed the demon what to say.

By the demon saying the truth, does not mean it had to be Samuel speaking.

It will happen more in the end times--

Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

LA

God could have given the devil instructions of what it was allowed to say, or it may have had license to say. If we use the example of Job, Satan both had license to be creative with how he attacked Job, but he was also given specific restrictions he had to obey.

 

[Rosenritter]

Someday you'll be sorry for your blatantly God-dishonoring statements. All of your fantastical ideas will be popped like a pricked balloon. Then you'll remember these conversations.

Jesus is "a god" just like human judges were called "gods" in Scripture, and Jesus brought this to the Pharisees' attention. But you don't understand that, do you?

John 10:31-36: "The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him, 'For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' [Jesus objected.] He answered them, 'Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are gods"? [Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I am the Son of God"?'" (NASB)

Jesus could have made it very clear there that he was God if that is what he was. But he re-iterated the fact that he did not claim to be God, and in fact was "a god" like the human judges of David's Psalm....a powerful, high-ranking individual. Not God.

You are preaching error, goldiedaz. I hope you wake up sometime soon.

K-Rose, I know this is drifting off the original topic a bit, but when Jesus refers to the Psalm saying it is written, "ye are gods" did you notice that there are two types of gods in that passage? There are the "gods" that shall "die like men" and there is God, who judges among those gods.

Psa 82:1, 6-8
(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

And you were saying that Jesus is one of these "gods" who shall be judged, die like men, fall like the princes?

Who is it that judges those gods at the end of the world? Jesus is the judge at the end of the world, therefore, Jesus is the God (with a capital G, not the lowercase) of that Psalm. Far from lowering himself to the status of "a god' Jesus was reminding them that he is their God and their Judge. The Jews understood the reference, which is why far from being pacified, they picked up rocks to stone him.

Joh 5:21-22
(21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

2Ti 4:1
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Who is it that inherits all nations, at his appearing and his kingdom? Jesus inherits all nations, Jesus is the God of the 82nd Psalm, Jesus is the God that judges among the gods.

If you mean to participate constructively, please do not try to use a "Jesus is not our God" position to offer support. Glory shouldn't have baited you like that, but you should know better to rise to that either. "The wicked shall burn up" is a biblical doctrine, it was there preached by Isaiah and Malachi and John the Baptist thousands of years before there was such a thing as Watchtower. I am sure Glory would love to attempt to associate "Annihilation" with "Watchtower" so that she could dismiss one by attacking the other. Please don't assist her in that regard. It doesn't help.

 

[Rosenritter]

Can you say something constructive about the subject instead of calling names? Why don't you look up the info I linked and offer some intelligent, thoughtful comments on some of that scriptural information? Are you able? Or all you can do is cast aspersions?

I give this advice to anyone who starts posting website links, authors, etc. If there is something valid there, digest it and present it in your own words. People don't chase after websites, and websites don't answer for their own error.

... and yes, there does seem to be quite a bit of name-calling on this forum, unfortunately.

 

[glorydaz]

It is because God had instructed the demon what to say.

By the demon saying the truth, does not mean it had to be Samuel speaking.

It will happen more in the end times--

Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?



LA

There is nothing in those verses to support your claim.

 

[glorydaz]

Listen to what? I haven't seen anything hopeful and true that you've had to offer. (And would you have dinner with Jesus in that outfit?)

He's seen me in less than that..... foolish pretender

 

[ok doser]

... and yes, there does seem to be quite a bit of name-calling on this forum, unfortunately.

i don't believe that's correct :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

Someday you'll be sorry for your blatantly God-dishonoring statements. All of your fantastical ideas will be popped like a pricked balloon. Then you'll remember these conversations.

Jesus is "a god" just like human judges were called "gods" in Scripture, and Jesus brought this to the Pharisees' attention. But you don't understand that, do you?

John 10:31-36: "The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him, 'For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' [Jesus objected.] He answered them, 'Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are gods"? [Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I am the Son of God"?'" (NASB)

Jesus could have made it very clear there that he was God if that is what he was. But he re-iterated the fact that he did not claim to be God, and in fact was "a god" like the human judges of David's Psalm....a powerful, high-ranking individual. Not God.

You are preaching error, goldiedaz. I hope you wake up sometime soon.

You have no Saviour. You will die in your sins.

 

[glorydaz]

K-Rose, I know this is drifting off the original topic a bit, but when Jesus refers to the Psalm saying it is written, "ye are gods" did you notice that there are two types of gods in that passage? There are the "gods" that shall "die like men" and there is God, who judges among those gods.

Psa 82:1, 6-8
(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

And you were saying that Jesus is one of these "gods" who shall be judged, die like men, fall like the princes?

Who is it that judges those gods at the end of the world? Jesus is the judge at the end of the world, therefore, Jesus is the God (with a capital G, not the lowercase) of that Psalm. Far from lowering himself to the status of "a god' Jesus was reminding them that he is their God and their Judge. The Jews understood the reference, which is why far from being pacified, they picked up rocks to stone him.

Joh 5:21-22
(21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

2Ti 4:1
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Who is it that inherits all nations, at his appearing and his kingdom? Jesus inherits all nations, Jesus is the God of the 82nd Psalm, Jesus is the God that judges among the gods.

If you mean to participate constructively, please do not try to use a "Jesus is not our God" position to offer support. Glory shouldn't have baited you like that, but you should know better to rise to that either. "The wicked shall burn up" is a biblical doctrine, it was there preached by Isaiah and Malachi and John the Baptist thousands of years before there was such a thing as Watchtower. I am sure Glory would love to attempt to associate "Annihilation" with "Watchtower" so that she could dismiss one by attacking the other. Please don't assist her in that regard. It doesn't help.

You both deny what is clearly written. She denies the deity of Christ, and you don't believe in a spiritual realm. Both of you are carnal ....

 

[Rosenritter]

There is nothing in those verses to support your claim.

Do devils always lie, or do they sometimes speak true things?

Mat 8:28-29
(28) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luk 8:27-28
(27) And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
(28) When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Act 16:16-18
(16) And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
(17) The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
(18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


Just because a spirit speaks something which is true or comes true, does not mean that it is a righteous spirit. Devils lie, but not always.

 

[Rosenritter]

You both deny what is clearly written. She denies the deity of Christ, and you don't believe in a spiritual realm. Both of you are carnal ....

I can see that you're anxious to renew your membership status in the false accusation club. For the second time, show me where I have said that I do not believe in a spiritual realm, G-daz? Merely repeating an accusation does not make it accurate.

Or here's a novel idea. If we are talking about what I believe, how about asking me, or listening to what I say that I believe? Remember that "straw man" problem we were talking about? Where you make up a position for someone else that they don't claim, and attack that position instead? Here's another example of that G-daz.

 

[Rosenritter]

You have no Saviour. You will die in your sins.

1Ti 4:10
(10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

It says that there is a Saviour of all men (specially of those that believe.) If you are saying that K-Rose has no saviour because she is not among all men (because she is a woman) then by the same measure, neither do you have a savior. Would you like to retract that statement?

 

[Rosenritter]

i don't believe that's correct :idunno:

I don't think the name-calling is correct either . I am hoping that we can come together and make a positive change in that regard.

 

[glorydaz]

Do devils always lie, or do they sometimes speak true things?

Mat 8:28-29
(28) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luk 8:27-28
(27) And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
(28) When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Act 16:16-18
(16) And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
(17) The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
(18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


Just because a spirit speaks something which is true or comes true, does not mean that it is a righteous spirit. Devils lie, but not always.

Grasping at straws again. You're comparing being confronted by Jesus or the servants of God with a demon appearing to Saul? What was the demon's purpose in confronting Saul? Please don't keep making things up that are nothing more than silly attempts to deceive.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't think the name-calling is correct either . I am hoping that we can come together and make a positive change in that regard.

So, do you think it's better to accuse people of "feigned ignorance" than to call them a fool?

 

[glorydaz]

I can see that you're anxious to renew your membership status in the false accusation club. For the second time, show me where I have said that I do not believe in a spiritual realm, G-daz? Merely repeating an accusation does not make it accurate.

Or here's a novel idea. If we are talking about what I believe, how about asking me, or listening to what I say that I believe? Remember that "straw man" problem we were talking about? Where you make up a position for someone else that they don't claim, and attack that position instead? Here's another example of that G-daz.

What? I'm seeing some feigned indignation here.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Jesus is "a god" just like human judges were called "gods" in Scripture, and Jesus brought this to the Pharisees' attention. But you don't understand that, do you?

John 10:31-36: "The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him, 'For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' [Jesus objected.] He answered them, 'Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are gods"? [Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I am the Son of God"?'" (NASB)

You dont even know what you speak, whats translated there, is the word judge. (god) that is what it means, Jesus is saying the judges are those to who the word of God came. (which is what the pharisees were, judges of the law)

Jesus is the ultimate Judge, being that He is the word itself become flesh.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[way 2 go]

So, let's see this supposed proof, Way 2 Go?

Rosenritter;5022640 No, there is serious contradiction between Jesus and the rest of the bible, if that passage uses literal elements

... and thus the passage in question does not use literal elements, Way 2 Go. Do you just practice acting stupid so as to justify repeating absurd accusations such as "you said Jesus was lying?" Your credibility here is zero.

Do I even need to point out that Jesus is included in the "rest of the Bible" outside of the passage in question? You would have Jesus contradict Jesus. So far, you're scored high on both the liar and hypocrite charts.

and no proof given just accusations and name calling , good job .

Abraham real person , that's a given I hope
Lazarus real person Jesus could have used the standard "certain man"
hades real - Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

bodies dead spirits continuing on
fire not consuming.
I believe Jesus would not lie. - Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies,


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

 

[Rosenritter]

Grasping at straws again. You're comparing being confronted by Jesus or the servants of God with a demon appearing to Saul? What was the demon's purpose in confronting Saul? Please don't keep making things up that are nothing more than silly attempts to deceive.

Devils usually have aims of their own amusement when they answer summons. They like to harass, to discourage, to falsely accuse, to name-call, and many delight in causing strife or misery. Devils are individual free-willed creations and as such their exact tastes and approaches may vary.

Do you deny that devils exists?
Do you deny that they are free willed creations?
Do you deny that they are spirits?
Do you deny that they roam the earth, seeking whom they might devour?
Do you deny that they accuse the brethren?

You don't need to know their true objectives to obey the commandment to have no part in necromancy or witchcraft. God had already lifted any protection from Saul when evil spirits were sent to plague him. Do you think Saul suddenly fell under protection when he sought after the witch? No, now, entering under that door, he was fresh meat. Free for the devils to torment.

 

[Rosenritter]

So, do you think it's better to accuse people of "feigned ignorance" than to call them a fool?

When the ignorance seems less likely to be because of intelligence and more likely with the objective of starting a fight, then yes, I think it is a shade more tactful.

Do you know what the term "feigned ignorance" means? From the way you are talking it sounds like you think it means something else. It's not the same as "fool" - it's different entirely.

 

[Rosenritter]

and no proof given just accusations and name calling , good job .

Way 2 Go, when you accuse a person of "saying Jesus was a liar" the burden of proof rests on you to provide evidence. When you provide no evidence for such a serious charge, that turns about and makes you the liar. Yes, you lack credibility, you make false accusations and don't provide evidence.

Abraham real person , that's a given I hope

Lazarus real person Jesus could have used the standard "certain man"
hades real - Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

bodies dead spirits continuing on
fire not consuming.
I believe Jesus would not lie. - Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies,

Trees are also real things, yet they are invoked in parables, yet when a mustard tree is referenced in a parable, it is not relating a real story about a specific tree. Jesus spoke in parable, his story fits the pattern of parable, it was preceded by parable, and the use of elements within a fictional story called parable is not a lie, Way 2 Go.

Now it's your turn to pretend ignorance of what the word "parable" means and chant "you said Jesus lied." There's nothing new in your argument from the past year.

P.S. Surely you're not unaware that choosing the name "Lazarus" for the gentile would have invoked a reminder of when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? "They will not believe, even if one came back from the dead?" But that Lazarus didn't testify "I went to hell and saw Abraham!" No record of such.