Aimiel
Well-known member
Throughout the entire conversation which is long enough to imply that the flames were designed for torment not eradication.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Ardima
New member
That prable (which it is) often has the wrong focus given to it. The fact that Jesus names the begger does not mean that it is a literal story (for Jesus always spoke in parables), it means that the focus of the parable is supposed to be on Lazarus, the one whom he names.
FYI, Lazarus was the most popular Greek/Roman name in the region at that time. Jesus using Lazarus in the parable is like using John Doe in a story now.
That parable is Jesus telling his people that Lazarus (the gentiles) would be brought into the Abrahamic Covenent because of their rejection, thus fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through him.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Sorry, but you've just given the 'textbook definition' of WRONG FOCUS. :duh:
The stone temple was a picture of Heavenly (Spiritual) things, not of created things in Heaven.
LA
The Bible is a human product, written by inspired men. And as a human "God-breathed" collection of books, it is filled with discrepancies and contradictions.
Rather than twisting the real history, oral tradition, legend and myth into something that reportedly agrees with our own personal theology, I try to understand what a particular verse meant to the people who first wrote it down. Then--and only then--can I figure out how the verse can be meaningful and applicable to my own life and the world at large.
There is the characterization of the divine as a jealous, punishing God right alongside the characterization of a God as love and one that does not play favorites.
Since the later characterization is so divorced from the divine ethnic cleanser found largely in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible), I try to use the voice print of Jesus that is found in the New Testament.
Finally and most importantly, if Jesus actually believed in a violent, judgmental and capricious God, then he clearly did not "walk his talk." And he would have never been referred to in such lofty terms as "God," "Son of God," "Born a virgin," "Resurrected," or "Messiah" after his death.
Rather than twisting the real history, oral tradition, legend and myth into something that reportedly agrees with our own personal theology, I try to understand what a particular verse meant to the people who first wrote it down. Then--and only then--can I figure out how the verse can be meaningful and applicable to my own life and the world at large.
There is the characterization of the divine as a jealous, punishing God right alongside the characterization of a God as love and one that does not play favorites.
Since the later characterization is so divorced from the divine ethnic cleanser found largely in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible), I try to use the voice print of Jesus that is found in the New Testament.
Finally and most importantly, if Jesus actually believed in a violent, judgmental and capricious God, then he clearly did not "walk his talk." And he would have never been referred to in such lofty terms as "God," "Son of God," "Born a virgin," "Resurrected," or "Messiah" after his death.
Aimiel
Well-known member
How you cannot see this is beyond me.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't ignore Scripture and apparently you do.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Just because someone has convinced you that annihilation is true doesn't mean that the theory holds water. Scripture teaches everlasting punishment and eternal torment. You can't deny that It does.
God's Truth
New member
Our spirits do not die; therefore, the spirits of those who reject God go to prison/hell to await final judgment after the resurrection.
Then, at the resurrection, our new bodies will be immortal. Therefore, those who reject God will be put in the lake of fire/hell, forever and ever.
God's Truth,
re: "Our spirits do not die..."
I'm not aware of any scripture that says that. What do you have in mind?
re: "...the spirits of those who reject God go to prison/hell to await final judgment..."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says: "And the spirit returns to God who gave it. " What scripture says that the spirit goes to hell to await final judgment?
re: "Our spirits do not die..."
I'm not aware of any scripture that says that. What do you have in mind?
re: "...the spirits of those who reject God go to prison/hell to await final judgment..."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says: "And the spirit returns to God who gave it. " What scripture says that the spirit goes to hell to await final judgment?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Okay. Have it your way. I'll have it the way of Scripture. Thanks for playing.
God's Truth
New member
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Did you see that? Man cannot kill the soul. The soul is a body with a spirit. If man cannot kill the spirit, then that tells us the spirit cannot be killed.
There are many scriptures that tell us that our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.
1 Peter 3:19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--
Luke 16:23 n Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Whatever.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Questioning ECT.............
Questioning ECT.............
I'll chime in again, just to note I've challenged the concept of 'ECT' (eternal conscious torment) and found it to be erroneous, immoral and problematic on many levels. We expose it here. ( blog-portal linking my earlier posts in this very thread).
ECT is antithetical to divine love and logic. Therefore, a whole paradigm shift in consciousness is required to properly handle the dynamics in the 'eschatology' of souls and what factors/principles determine the soul's 'condition' and its destiny. A 'god' who maintains a system where souls are eternally tortured TO NO END, is sadistic. There could be no reasonable explanation why a just and merciful god would allow or enforce such a system of unending punishment TO NO END. Punishments are given in a just system only in proportion to the crime committed, measure for measure, until the last farthing is paid. Then a law-breaker can make amends(restitution) in some form (repentance/reformation) to where he is restored to lawful living, in right relationship to life.
Punishment is 'corrective', 'reparative'. If it is not, there is no point in endlessing punishing.
pj
Questioning ECT.............
I'll chime in again, just to note I've challenged the concept of 'ECT' (eternal conscious torment) and found it to be erroneous, immoral and problematic on many levels. We expose it here. ( blog-portal linking my earlier posts in this very thread).
ECT is antithetical to divine love and logic. Therefore, a whole paradigm shift in consciousness is required to properly handle the dynamics in the 'eschatology' of souls and what factors/principles determine the soul's 'condition' and its destiny. A 'god' who maintains a system where souls are eternally tortured TO NO END, is sadistic. There could be no reasonable explanation why a just and merciful god would allow or enforce such a system of unending punishment TO NO END. Punishments are given in a just system only in proportion to the crime committed, measure for measure, until the last farthing is paid. Then a law-breaker can make amends(restitution) in some form (repentance/reformation) to where he is restored to lawful living, in right relationship to life.
Punishment is 'corrective', 'reparative'. If it is not, there is no point in endlessing punishing.
pj