Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

Why do you people keep asking this inane question? The Bible says that God will raise the dead for judgment and then send the wicked to the second death. But if you think this is a wonderful question that stumps all of us, let me ask you why you think that God would send the wicked to torment in Hell, raise them up on Judgment Day, THEN judge them guilty, then send send them BACK to Hell for more eternal torment?

Sorry, but that isn't in Scripture. You're confused, as usual. Scripture states that the dead are in hell and will be raised to judgment and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the spirit of hell will be cast into that lake, to be tormented by flames for ever and ever. If it doesn't destroy Satan, hell, the beast and the false prophet but only torments them forever, what makes you believe that it will destroy other created beings? Why can't you just believe what The Bible says? Are you merely ignorant?

 

[Timotheos]

Sorry, but that isn't in Scripture. You're confused, as usual. Scripture states that the dead are in hell and will be raised to judgment and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the spirit of hell will be cast into that lake, to be tormented by flames for ever and ever. If it doesn't destroy Satan, hell, the beast and the false prophet but only torments them forever, what makes you believe that it will destroy other created beings? Why can't you just believe what The Bible says? Are you merely ignorant?

Thank you for your uninformed opinion about me. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. According to you, the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell. Who is confused, me and the Bible, or you and your false tradition?

You are unable to post even one verse that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tormented until judgment day when they are resurrected, judged and then sent back to hell for more torture. Are you merely ignorant about what the Bible says? Whoever believes in Him will not PERISH, but will have eternal life. Why can't you believe this instead of your false tradition?

 

[godrulz]

Fair enough.

You and I disagree on whether the principle is in scripture. Death is never redefined as "eternal life in hell" in scripture either. However the concept of death as the penalty for sin is spelled out time after time in scripture. Sinners are said to be destroyed, they are no more, they are consumed by fire, they are as ash, as well as they "perish". "The wicked will be no more" is an apt description of a person who has died.

If you know anything about adjectives and nouns, you should get Jesus' point about everlasting punishment (not just the effects, your loop hole) vs everlasting life.

 

[Aimiel]

It's called the second "death". Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong because I believe the second death is death. Just stop trying to pretend that I don't believe the Bible or that I'm erasing anything. The lake of fire is the second death, according to the Bible. You've erased "the second death" and you scratched in "eternal conscious torment". I don't deny that the Bible means what it says. The lake of fire is the second death. I proclaim that, no matter how many times you deny that it means what it says.

It is nicknamed the 'second death' and with good reason... those who suffer the first death (I will never see death since I believe in Christ) will suffer the second death. When they died they didn't go out of existence, they merely dropped off the face of this plane of existence (temporal or physical realm). They still exist under the earth in spirit form, where they are held prisoner (in hell) until judgment day, when even hell and death will be judged. All evil spirits (powers such as the world system, Babylon, hell, death, disease and even the spirit of sin; principalities such as Persia, Gog, Magog, etc., and; rulers of the darkness of this world such as lust, greed, sloth, gluttony and all the others) will be judged and cast into eternal conscious torment. It will be their first and last day in Paradise. They will pass from life into the land of death, where death himself is tormented forever. I believe that the Lake of Fire will be apart from Heaven and will be so far away from Heaven (cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth) that we will never even notice the smoke of their torment which will ascend forever. We will forget they ever existed. They will be no more in our thoughts or minds and we will never see or hear from them again. There will be no regrets in Heaven. No sorrow. No pain. No missing the enemies of God. Not one single soul will ever even speak as single syllable against the judgments that God makes. All will see and know that His Judgment is PERFECT. He sends them to their deserved fate: eternal conscious torment. He prepared hell for them. He created the Lake of Fire to torment them. He sends them into that place because He chose to do so from before the foundation of the earth. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows everything. Nothing ever surprises Him.

 

[Timotheos]

If you know anything about adjectives and nouns, you should get Jesus' point about everlasting punishment (not just the effects, your loop hole) vs everlasting life.

Interesting. You just admitted that the alternative to eternal (which is what the Bible says -aionion-) punishment is everlasting life. What do you call people who don't have life? They are dead. They are not alive forever in hell being tormented.

Eternal punishment VERSUS Eternal life. Those who have eternal punishment do not have eternal life. If you were correct, the Bible would say that one group goes away to eternal life in torment, and the other goes to eternal life with no torment.

Apparently you don't know as much about adjectives and nouns as you think you do.

 

[Timotheos]

Why don't you two just accept what the Bible says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord", and "Whoever believes in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life"?

 

[godrulz]

Why don't you two just accept what the Bible says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord", and "Whoever believes in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life"?

We do accept what the Bible says properly interpreted.


Just as the anti-trinitarian proof texts do not negate the biblical trinity, so these two verses have never been a problem for traditional hell believers. The problem is with your view/interpretation, not with us (these verses are true and are consistent with my view).

It is possible to be spiritually dead while yet alive (so it is possible to experience everlasting punishment....how else would we show that punishment in a conscious state is everlasting other than with these words...while still aware). There is a big difference between conscious separation from God and the Johannine use of eternal life about believers. You are reducing death to physical appearance like a dead dog and limiting eternal life to conscious existence in heaven. Eternal life conveys truths that are not identical to the idea of everlasting existing without relationship with Christ. You are not interpretating, just proof texting/eisegesis.

One can languish and perish and be reduced to barely nothing in the physical (jail, desert, etc.), so death and perish and punishment do not have to imply your view at all. You have not looked at the semantical range of words in context (including Greek word study range) to be so simplistically dogmatic. The traditional view is not controversial and has been established despite the liberal or cultic attacks on it (yes, I know some evangelicals are compromising and falling for the same errors).

 

[Timotheos]

We do accept what the Bible says properly interpreted.


Just as the anti-trinitarian proof texts do not negate the biblical trinity, so these two verses have never been a problem for traditional hell believers. The problem is with your view/interpretation, not with us (these verses are true and are consistent with my view).

It is possible to be spiritually dead while yet alive (so it is possible to experience everlasting punishment....how else would we show that punishment in a conscious state is everlasting other than with these words...while still aware). There is a big difference between conscious separation from God and the Johannine use of eternal life about believers. You are reducing death to physical appearance like a dead dog and limiting eternal life to conscious existence in heaven. Eternal life conveys truths that are not identical to the idea of everlasting existing without relationship with Christ. You are not interpretating, just proof texting/eisegesis.

One can languish and perish and be reduced to barely nothing in the physical (jail, desert, etc.), so death and perish and punishment do not have to imply your view at all. You have not looked at the semantical range of words in context (including Greek word study range) to be so simplistically dogmatic. The traditional view is not controversial and has been established despite the liberal or cultic attacks on it (yes, I know some evangelicals are compromising and falling for the same errors).

Here is my problem with your view. It is never described in scripture. You have never shown even one verse that says that the wicked will remain alive forever in hell conscious of torment. So you can claim that death doesn't really mean death, and perish doesn't really mean perish, and destruction doesn't really mean destruction, but that still doesn't prove that YOUR view is found anywhere in the Bible.

And you should know by now (Because I've already told you) that we do not determine truth by counting noses. It doesn't matter how many people believe the world is flat, it isn't. It doesn't matter how many people believe that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. Since the Bible doesn't say this, it isn't true. Since the Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more, that's the truth, no matter how many people disagree.

And by the way, more and more evangelicals are examining the Bible and discovering that the wages of sin really is death and not eternal conscious torment. If you want to get on the Bandwagon, as you seem to want to do, come over to the truth along with them. Many many more people are abandoning the false view of ECT in favor of the truth of the Bible, than are abandoning Conditional Immortality (The belief that only those who are in Christ have eternal life) in favor of ECTism. But Eternal Conscious Tormentism (ECTism) like any false cult, will always have it's adherents.

 

[Timotheos]

Just as the anti-trinitarian proof texts do not negate the biblical trinity...

And just as the proof texts Anti-Trinitarians use are rejected, the proof texts ECTists use should also be rejected. There is not even one verse in the Bible that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever as long as they live while they are dead.

 

[godrulz]

All truth is not in one verse. It is based on cumulative evidence. Just because you don't get it does not mean it is not there for the rest of us to see and defend.

e.g. Lk. 16 is far more problematic to your view than you realize.

If you do not even see that everlasting life is not eternal if everlasting punishment is not, then I cannot help you (grammatical parallel). To say that the affects of punishment vs punishment itself is eternal is classic loop hole rationalizing to retain a wrong view at all costs.

 

[Timotheos]

All truth is not in one verse. It is based on cumulative evidence. Just because you don't get it does not mean it is not there for the rest of us to see and defend.

e.g. Lk. 16 is far more problematic to your view than you realize.

If you do not even see that everlasting life is not eternal if everlasting punishment is not, then I cannot help you (grammatical parallel). To say that the affects of punishment vs punishment itself is eternal is classic loop hole rationalizing to retain a wrong view at all costs.

Give a couple of verses then and try to defend your position biblically.

And if you don't believe eternal death is an eternal punishment, then you need an English class. Are you actually trying to claim that nobody can have eternal everlasting life unless there are others who have eternal everlasting torment in hell???

The wages of sin is death. The soul who sins shall die. The wicked will perish and the wicked will be no more. No matter how you rationalize it, this is what the Bible says. And it never once says that the wicked will live forever in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead.

 

[Krsto]

It's called the second "death". Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong because I believe the second death is death. Just stop trying to pretend that I don't believe the Bible or that I'm erasing anything. The lake of fire is the second death, according to the Bible. You've erased "the second death" and you scratched in "eternal conscious torment". I don't deny that the Bible means what it says. The lake of fire is the second death. I proclaim that, no matter how many times you deny that it means what it says.

"You don't believe the bible" is an argument for those who don't have an argument. It's a form of ad hominem.

 

[Krsto]

It is true, not a doctoral level treatise (those exist elsewhere...this is a simple post forum).

How can it be true if you didn't say anything? Reminds me of people who say "Nostradamus said . . ." when he really didn't say anything. Just a bunch of words.

Try 'splanin' yerself fer us simple folks from the back woods.

 

[Timotheos]

"You don't believe the bible" is an argument for those who don't have an argument. It's a form of ad hominem.

Yes, I know. "If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander" is an idiom that means, if they use it against me and nobody complains, then they can't object to the same treatment.

I've shown them that my position comes directly from the Bible, and I've asked them to show me even one verse from the Bible that supports their doctrine, and they can't. And they say "You don't believe the Bible, you've denied it's plain meaning, you've erased parts of the Bible". So I've turned it around. Sue me for using the same adhoms they use.

 

[Krsto]

Yes, I know. "If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander" is an idiom that means, if they use it against me and nobody complains, then they can't object to the same treatment.

I've shown them that my position comes directly from the Bible, and I've asked them to show me even one verse from the Bible that supports their doctrine, and they can't. And they say "You don't believe the Bible, you've denied it's plain meaning, you've erased parts of the Bible". So I've turned it around. Sue me for using the same adhoms they use.

I hadn't notice your use of it, I was thinking of Amiel. He typically goes only so far and then just repeats this mantra, as if anyone who disagrees with him is not trying to be faithful to the revelation God has provided in the scriptures.

 

[Timotheos]

I hadn't notice your use of it, I was thinking of Amiel. He typically goes only so far and then just repeats this mantra, as if anyone who disagrees with him is not trying to be faithful to the revelation God has provided in the scriptures.

Sorry, I guess I'm too sensitive. However, I have been holding them over the fire (figuratively speaking) lately for not believing what is plainly written in the Bible. (For the wages of sin is death, whoever believes will not perish, etc, etc)

 

[godrulz]

Sorry, I guess I'm too sensitive. However, I have been holding them over the fire (figuratively speaking) lately for not believing what is plainly written in the Bible. (For the wages of sin is death, whoever believes will not perish, etc, etc)

:rapture:

 

[Timotheos]

:rapture:

Hi Bro!


Is there a "resurrected to eternal life" smiley?

 

[Jordan Fontenot]

Sorry, but that isn't in Scripture. You're confused, as usual. Scripture states that the dead are in hell and will be raised to judgment and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the spirit of hell will be cast into that lake, to be tormented by flames for ever and ever. If it doesn't destroy Satan, hell, the beast and the false prophet but only torments them forever, what makes you believe that it will destroy other created beings? Why can't you just believe what The Bible says? Are you merely ignorant?

Where?

 

[Krsto]

Sorry, but that isn't in Scripture. You're confused, as usual. Scripture states that the dead are in hell and will be raised to judgment and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the spirit of hell will be cast into that lake, to be tormented by flames for ever and ever. If it doesn't destroy Satan, hell, the beast and the false prophet but only torments them forever, what makes you believe that it will destroy other created beings? Why can't you just believe what The Bible says? Are you merely ignorant?

Why not just read it accurately?

What makes us believe everyone but Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet are destroyed in the Lake of Fire?

1) It never says the rest suffer for eternity. That in itself is enough since the burden of proof is on you who are promoting such a radical and horrific idea that God punishes non-Christians forever. It's up to you to prove your proposition first then we can disprove it if you can even demonstrate what you believe is what's taught in scriptures.
2) The nature of God, as taught us by scripture, and our own personal experience with a loving God, compels us to believe God would never allow any person, no matter how wicked, to suffer for eternity. The case for God's goodness and his justice is so great that we would rather conclude the Beast and the False Prophet represent something other than people, like religious systems, than to believe they represent people like you assume they do. To interpret scriptures as you do is not to harmonize scriptural revelation about God and what he would do.
3) You have to assume a lot of things about Revelation to get your interpretation:
a) The Beast & False Prophet represent individuals. That's an assumption, not a fact.
b) The events in that chapter represent what happens in the afterlife. That's an assumption, not a fact. They could represent judgement for people alive on earth, and if you understand apocalyptic literature you know that's a valid way to look at it.