Actually, "a heaven to gain and a hell to shun" is not in the Bible.
Where did that phrase arise from?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Actually, "a heaven to gain and a hell to shun" is not in the Bible.
Where did that phrase arise from?
TruthSetsFree
New member
the soul that sins shall die
Mt 25:31-46 (eternal punishment)
the whole book of Revelation (or most of it)
Mt 18:23
1 Cor 3:13 (Purgatory)
The Platonic concept of inherent immortality of the soul is not the same as the biblical truth of spirit-soul in the image of God continuing to exist after death. We are sustained by God, unlike in Plato. Immortality also has a semantical range of meaning including of God, man, believers, etc.
The principles are in Scripture. It may have come from evangelist to Africa, Reinhard Bonnke.
The phrase that death is annihilation or cessation is also not in the Bible (nor is the principle).
Krsto
Well-known member
If God sustains all, that is makes all immortal, then why do Christians seek for and are granted immortality? I would say the following scriptures refute your idea that God sustains everyone:
Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim. 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
There is a difference between God's inherent immortality, man's contingent immortality, believer's eternal and abundant life now and forever with God, and being conscious while separated from God, a far cry from God's intended design/purpose for the individual (like the burning bush that is not consumed).
Krsto
Well-known member
That's not an answer, that's obfuscation.
It is true, not a doctoral level treatise (those exist elsewhere...this is a simple post forum).
Fair enough.
You and I disagree on whether the principle is in scripture. Death is never redefined as "eternal life in hell" in scripture either. However the concept of death as the penalty for sin is spelled out time after time in scripture. Sinners are said to be destroyed, they are no more, they are consumed by fire, they are as ash, as well as they "perish". "The wicked will be no more" is an apt description of a person who has died.
Aimiel
Well-known member
That you say eternal conscious torment is merely 'suggested' by The Holy Scriptures would be laughable, if it were not so important that people know the truth about Scripture. Most people do not read their Bible but merely read parts they like and even ignore parts they don't like or that don't agree with their personal theology. Eternal conscious torment is fact. There wouldn't be a need for a 'second' death if death meant what people who deny eternal conscious torment believe it means. Death means your current existence changes to a new paradigm. Being tormented in flames for ever and ever is the second death. The first death is leaving the fallen world of men and entering the spirit realm, where God's Will is done.
Matthew 19:16
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”
And Jesus answered him, Why do you ask me about obtaining eternal life? Don't you know that you already have eternal life, it is merely a matter of where you will spend eternity? But sell all you have and follow me, for there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.
But of course, Jesus didn't answer him like that. But later Jesus does say this: "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life."
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Lake of Fire, also referred to as: "The Second Death," is where sinners will spend eternity. The beast (a man) and the false prophet (a man) are described as being tormented for ever and ever there. What makes you think that other sinners will be removed from existence because they are sent to the Lake of Fire? They won't. They will receive the same punishment all sinners, including the devil and his angels will... eternal conscious torment.
Please give me the chapter and verse for this one.
Where does the Bible ever say that death is "leaving the fallen world of men and entering the spirit realm"? This sounds more like Homer's mythology than the Bible.
The lake of fire is the second death. This is what the Bible specifically says. This causes me to believe that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal life in flames being tormented alive forever. Which part of "the second death" makes you think people will be alive forever in the lake of fire?
Please, don't just ignore the parts of the Bible that you don't like.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Sorry, but all the passages that describe eternal conscious torment in your Bible have been crossed out.
What do you think it is? Non-existence? Why then does God raise men from death if that is the case? Seriously... if He's going to erase their life, why wake them from their sleep?
I see. So you can't even give ONE verse that agrees with your twisted theology? Not even ONE? How sad for you.
What do I believe death is? Is that the question? I believe it is death. The condition of not being alive and conscious.
According to the Bible, God raises men from death for judgment. Then He either gives then eternal life or sends them to the second death. The second death is death, the second time.
They are not asleep, they are dead. God raises them from death in order to judge their works. Haven't you read the Bible? "The day is coming when all who are in their graves will hear my voice and will come out", "For all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ". How will they stand before the judgment seat of Christ if Christ does not raise them from the dead first? And according to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. If they must pay the penalty for sin at the judgment, this is death. The second death, since they have been dead before.
But of YOU have a problem with God raising the dead in order to judge them for their sins, YOU should discuss it with Him. I simply believe that He will do what He says He will do.
Why do you people keep asking this inane question? The Bible says that God will raise the dead for judgment and then send the wicked to the second death. But if you think this is a wonderful question that stumps all of us, let me ask you why you think that God would send the wicked to torment in Hell, raise them up on Judgment Day, THEN judge them guilty, then send send them BACK to Hell for more eternal torment???
You think THAT makes more sense than what the Bible says? (The dead are raised, judged, and either receive eternal life or the second death as a result of that judgment.)
I don't think you are thinking clearly.
Why do you resist the truth of the bible so strenuously? The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, the wicked will perish, the wicked will be no more, they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, they will go to destruction, they will be destroyed just as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the soul who sins shall die, unless you repent you will likewise perish, whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. The Bible is crystal clear, yet you insist that the wicked will NOT perish, but will have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead, EVEN THOUGH THE BIBLE NEVER ONCE SAYS THIS!!! Why are you being so difficult? Why can't you just accept what the Bible says?
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You never actually answered my question. Where does the Bible ever say this? The Bible NEVER says "The first death is changing your current existence to a new paradigm, leaving the fallen world and entering the spirit realm."
You are mistaken. You are wrong.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Whatever dude, it is what it is. Men don't just poof out of existence. They sleep, until judgment. We (Christians) never see death. They see it... they sleep. They also awaken to the 'second death' which is eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire. It's in Scripture and you cannot erase it, no matter how many times you deny it means what it says. There is no sleeping there, only torment of flames and worms. Complete darkness, with no hope of escape. No end of torment. No help. No salvation. No company. Nothing but pain. Forever.
It's called the second "death". Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong because I believe the second death is death. Just stop trying to pretend that I don't believe the Bible or that I'm erasing anything. The lake of fire is the second death, according to the Bible. You've erased "the second death" and you scratched in "eternal conscious torment". I don't deny that the Bible means what it says. The lake of fire is the second death. I proclaim that, no matter how many times you deny that it means what it says.