Is the Bible the only sacred texts and why or why not.

Hawkins

Active member
What humans don't know (not even Mohammad) is the process of human witnessing. What elements make a human witnessing valid. Humans are kept in the darkness though they take it for granted when making use of it without their awareness.


It is a Jewish tradition that you need to two witnesses to testify in order for a testimony to stand valid. This is the basic measure to avoid false testimonies (such as Koran?). Even Jesus needs 2 witnesses in the absence of any humans. He has God the Father and God the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses.

This makes an human account of testimony a valid one.

Both OT and NT are multiple account testimonies, but not any other holy books. It shows that the authors of those other holy books are clueless about the human witnessing is.

In order for a valid account of testimony to work, you need to first preach it, then you need faith to believe. Daily News on TVs are undergoing the same exact process. The piece of news first needs to be broadcast (preached), then the audience need faith in the media for the contents to stand as facts. Multiple witnesses, preaching, believe with faith are thus the 3 elements of a valid human witnessing to stand. We can choose to watch only one TV channel but that's provided we already build up faith in its credibility and reliability. Before we consider this channel as a reliable one, most likely we cross reference other media to confirm a piece of important news.

OT prophets are all called God's witnesses explicitly. Preaching the to the whole world to invite faith is an explicit commandment. No other holy book can make it explicit at all or to this extent.

Then the next is why a religion is a must to be employed. It is because humans don't (didn't) have the capability of keeping original documents, especially before the invention of paper. Inside today's great libraries, not a single book has its full ancient manuscripts successfully conserved by humans (unless you try to fallacious argue that one piece of manuscript can be used to support a book of 1000 pages).

The only document with mass amount of manuscripts or even a complete set (Dead Sea Scrolls for OT) of manuscripts is the Bible, which existed before the invention of paper. A religion plays a key role in conserving a complete theology and to bring it across history before the invention of paper.

The next is how the Bible's contents are secured? God authenticated the Jews to secure the OT Canon. They are stubborn (may not be a good word) people that no one can add or subtract any contents from the Canon they are guarding. God's earthly church, though intangible, successfully guards the NT Canon thus no one can add or subtract contents. Mormon tried but not that successfully, it's thus widely considered as heresy.

Such a kind of authentication itself is formal and explicit.

Law and Prophets are proclaimed till John the Baptist, since then the gospel is to be preached. This marks a formal and explicit announcement that the NT is effective from John the Baptist and onward.

There's another verse saying that binding and loosing (lawful authority) goes through Peter as the authority of the intangible earthly church. This authentication of earthly church is formal and explicit. It's as lawful as it can be. This is a formal announcement of authority shift from the Jews to the Church of Christians.

All the measure mentioned may have anything to do with Satan's attack. Because the NT Bible is true in terms of salvation, Satan will have to launch his attack. It drives the need of canonization which actually further secures the contents of our NT Bible.


In comparison, other holy books are a joke!
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
What makes you think the Quran or other sacred texts don't mention two witnesses?

What humans don't know (not even Mohammad) is the process of human witnessing. What elements make a human witnessing valid. Humans are kept in the darkness though they take it for granted when making use of it without their awareness.


It is a Jewish tradition that you need to two witnesses to testify in order for a testimony to stand valid. This is the basic measure to avoid false testimonies (such as Koran?). Even Jesus needs 2 witnesses in the absence of any humans. He has God the Father and God the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses.

This makes an human account of testimony a valid one.

Both OT and NT are multiple account testimonies, but not any other holy books. It shows that the authors of those other holy books are clueless about the human witnessing is.

In order for a valid account of testimony to work, you need to first preach it, then you need faith to believe. Daily News on TVs are undergoing the same exact process. The piece of news first needs to be broadcast (preached), then the audience need faith in the media for the contents to stand as facts. Multiple witnesses, preaching, believe with faith are thus the 3 elements of a valid human witnessing to stand. We can choose to watch only one TV channel but that's provided we already build up faith in its credibility and reliability. Before we consider this channel as a reliable one, most likely we cross reference other media to confirm a piece of important news.

OT prophets are all called God's witnesses explicitly. Preaching the to the whole world to invite faith is an explicit commandment. No other holy book can make it explicit at all or to this extent.

Then the next is why a religion is a must to be employed. It is because humans don't (didn't) have the capability of keeping original documents, especially before the invention of paper. Inside today's great libraries, not a single book has its full ancient manuscripts successfully conserved by humans (unless you try to fallacious argue that one piece of manuscript can be used to support a book of 1000 pages).

The only document with mass amount of manuscripts or even a complete set (Dead Sea Scrolls for OT) of manuscripts is the Bible, which existed before the invention of paper. A religion plays a key role in conserving a complete theology and to bring it across history before the invention of paper.

The next is how the Bible's contents are secured? God authenticated the Jews to secure the OT Canon. They are stubborn (may not be a good word) people that no one can add or subtract any contents from the Canon they are guarding. God's earthly church, though intangible, successfully guards the NT Canon thus no one can add or subtract contents. Mormon tried but not that successfully, it's thus widely considered as heresy.

Such a kind of authentication itself is formal and explicit.

Law and Prophets are proclaimed till John the Baptist, since then the gospel is to be preached. This marks a formal and explicit announcement that the NT is effective from John the Baptist and onward.

There's another verse saying that binding and loosing (lawful authority) goes through Peter as the authority of the intangible earthly church. This authentication of earthly church is formal and explicit. It's as lawful as it can be.

In comparison, other holy books are a joke!

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Hawkins

Active member
What makes you think the Quran or other sacred texts don't mention two witnesses?



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It is because Koran is commonly referred to as the work of Mohammad. Do you have a verse quote from Koran saying that another witness other than Mohammed is needed for Koran to stand true?

I listed tons of points and you have only one to respond to?
 

Hawkins

Active member
What humans don't know (not even Mohammad) is the process of human witnessing. What elements make a human witnessing valid. Humans are kept in the darkness though they take it for granted when making use of it without their awareness.


It is a Jewish tradition that you need to two witnesses to testify in order for a testimony to stand valid. This is the basic measure to avoid false testimonies (such as Koran?). Even Jesus needs 2 witnesses in the absence of any humans. He has God the Father and God the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses.

This makes an human account of testimony a valid one.

Both OT and NT are multiple account testimonies, but not any other holy books. It shows that the authors of those other holy books are clueless about the human witnessing is.

In order for a valid account of testimony to work, you need to first preach it, then you need faith to believe. Daily News on TVs are undergoing the same exact process. The piece of news first needs to be broadcast (preached), then the audience need faith in the media for the contents to stand as facts. Multiple witnesses, preaching, believe with faith are thus the 3 elements of a valid human witnessing to stand. We can choose to watch only one TV channel but that's provided we already build up faith in its credibility and reliability. Before we consider this channel as a reliable one, most likely we cross reference other media to confirm a piece of important news.

OT prophets are all called God's witnesses explicitly. Preaching the to the whole world to invite faith is an explicit commandment. No other holy book can make it explicit at all or to this extent.

Then the next is why a religion is a must to be employed. It is because humans don't (didn't) have the capability of keeping original documents, especially before the invention of paper. Inside today's great libraries, not a single book has its full ancient manuscripts successfully conserved by humans (unless you try to fallacious argue that one piece of manuscript can be used to support a book of 1000 pages).

The only document with mass amount of manuscripts or even a complete set (Dead Sea Scrolls for OT) of manuscripts is the Bible, which existed before the invention of paper. A religion plays a key role in conserving a complete theology and to bring it across history before the invention of paper.

The next is how the Bible's contents are secured? God authenticated the Jews to secure the OT Canon. They are stubborn (may not be a good word) people that no one can add or subtract any contents from the Canon they are guarding. God's earthly church, though intangible, successfully guards the NT Canon thus no one can add or subtract contents. Mormon tried but not that successfully, it's thus widely considered as heresy.

Such a kind of authentication itself is formal and explicit.

Law and Prophets are proclaimed till John the Baptist, since then the gospel is to be preached. This marks a formal and explicit announcement that the NT is effective from John the Baptist and onward.

There's another verse saying that binding and loosing (lawful authority) goes through Peter as the authority of the intangible earthly church. This authentication of earthly church is formal and explicit. It's as lawful as it can be. This is a formal announcement of authority shift from the Jews to the Church of Christians.

All the measure mentioned may have anything to do with Satan's attack. Because the NT Bible is true in terms of salvation, Satan will have to launch his attack. It drives the need of canonization which actually further secures the contents of our NT Bible.


In comparison, other holy books are a joke!


All the measure mentioned may have anything to do with Satan's attack. Because the NT Bible is true in terms of salvation, Satan will have to launch his attack with the tons of false doctrines and false writings. It drives the need of canonization which actually further secures the contents of our NT Bible. The canonization is lawfully supposed to be done by the earthly authority assigned by God. Thus OT Canon was done by the Jews, while NT Canon was done by our earthly Church (back then it was represented by the Catholics).

Moreover, a valid human account of witnessing is always about the testimony of a human eyewitness. Not a hearsay from an angel. Again Mohammad failed because he failed to know (no human knows) what a true human account of testimony is.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
It is because Koran is commonly referred to as the work of Mohammad. Do you have a verse quote from Koran saying that another witness other than Mohammed is needed for Koran to stand true?

I listed tons of points and you have only one to respond to?
There are two witnesses at least as Mohammed didn't write it, but spoke it.

The only valid point I noticed is your mention of the truth always being understood or verified by at least two witnesses.

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Hawkins

Active member
There are two witnesses at least as Mohammed didn't write it, but spoke it.

The only valid point I noticed is your mention of the truth always being understood or verified by at least two witnesses.

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Again, that guy is not an eyewitness of what Mohammad said. In the end, it is just a single account of witnessing indirectly from an angel.

Mohammad heard what is said by an angel, he himself is not an eyewitness of God. Then the other one wrote it down simply because Mohammad is blind?.

It's a copy cat type failure!
 

popsthebuilder

New member
GOD, the angel that delivered the message, Mohammed and his brother.....that's four.

There are a lot of verses in the Quran speaking about witnessing. Here are a couple for your consideration.

Again, that guy is not an eyewitness of what Mohammad said. In the end, it is just a single account of witnessing indirectly from an angel.

Mohammad heard what is said by an angel, he himself is not an eyewitness of God. Then the other one wrote it down simply because Mohammad is blind?.

It's a copy cat type failure!
5:106. O you who believe! When death comes to one of you (and you wish to make your will) let there be present among you, at the time of making the will, two just persons from among you or two others from among the outsiders, in case you are journeying in the country and the calamity of death overtakes you. In case you doubt (their honesty in giving evidence), you shall detain both (the witnesses) after Prayer, then let them both swear by Allâh (and bear witness) saying, ‘We will accept for this (- our oath) no price; (we will bear true evidence) even though he (in whose favour or against we bear evidence) be near of kin, nor will we hide the testimony (enjoined to be borne uprightly) by Allâh, for if we do so, we shall certainly be among the sinners.’ 5:107. But if it be discovered that these two have become guilty of sin, then let two others stand in their place from among those (heirs) against whom the (former) two (witnesses) who were in a better position (to give true evidence) are sinfully deposed, and the two (latter witnesses) swear by Allâh (saying), ‘Surely, our testimony is truer than the testimony of those two and we have not exceeded the bounds of justice (in bearing the evidence) for, in that case, we shall certainly be of the wrongdoers.’

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Bright Raven

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GOD, the angel that delivered the message, Mohammed and his brother.....that's four.

There are a lot of verses in the Quran speaking about witnessing. Here are a couple for your consideration.

5:106. O you who believe! When death comes to one of you (and you wish to make your will) let there be present among you, at the time of making the will, two just persons from among you or two others from among the outsiders, in case you are journeying in the country and the calamity of death overtakes you. In case you doubt (their honesty in giving evidence), you shall detain both (the witnesses) after Prayer, then let them both swear by Allâh (and bear witness) saying, ‘We will accept for this (- our oath) no price; (we will bear true evidence) even though he (in whose favour or against we bear evidence) be near of kin, nor will we hide the testimony (enjoined to be borne uprightly) by Allâh, for if we do so, we shall certainly be among the sinners.’ 5:107. But if it be discovered that these two have become guilty of sin, then let two others stand in their place from among those (heirs) against whom the (former) two (witnesses) who were in a better position (to give true evidence) are sinfully deposed, and the two (latter witnesses) swear by Allâh (saying), ‘Surely, our testimony is truer than the testimony of those two and we have not exceeded the bounds of justice (in bearing the evidence) for, in that case, we shall certainly be of the wrongdoers.’

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Are you a Muslim? Do you accept the Quran as your sacred text?
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Are you a Muslim? Do you accept the Quran as your sacred text?
Along with the bible and other core sacred texts of the believer.

I do not consider myself a muslim and most actual muslims wouldn't consider me one either.

I don't take offence to being referred to as Islamic though; as it simply means submissive to GOD.

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Bright Raven

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Along with the bible and other core sacred texts of the believer.

I do not consider myself a muslim and most actual muslims wouldn't consider me one either.

I don't take offence to being referred to as Islamic though; as it simply means submissive to GOD.

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The believer has no other core text but the Bible. What other core text is there for a Christian?
 

popsthebuilder

New member
You seem to be conflating believer with Christian; as if it is not the will of GOD that all be reconciled to HIM, or that all is not HIS creation alone, or that HE is without the power to lead us towards HIM, or that HE knowingly decided to make man in order for them to be eternally tortured for what HE gave them the capacity for, knowingly.

Your lack of understanding is profound.

Thankfully our GOD is merciful and understanding and all knowing.
The believer has no other core text but the Bible. What other core text is there for a Christian?

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Bright Raven

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You seem to be conflating believer with Christian; as if it is not the will of GOD that all be reconciled to HIM, or that all is not HIS creation alone, or that HE is without the power to lead us towards HIM, or that HE knowingly decided to make man in order for them to be eternally tortured for what HE gave them the capacity for, knowingly.

Your lack of understanding is profound.

Thankfully our GOD is merciful and understanding and all knowing.

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You did not answer the question. What other core text is there for the Christian besides the Bible?
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Wait, the Koran is considered scripture? And a Christian needs to follow that as well? Surely that's a bad joke right?
 

popsthebuilder

New member
One is for a certain people and the other for another; yet they teach the same things to the same people for the same purpose. You keep wanting to pit one against the other without actually cparing the two; when in reality the support and verify one another.
How much authority does the Quran have? Is it on the same level as scripture?

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JudgeRightly

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One is for a certain people and the other for another; yet they teach the same things to the same people for the same purpose. You keep wanting to pit one against the other without actually cparing the two; when in reality the support and verify one another.

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They do not teach the same things. For example:

Quran 4:157-158

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

That's what the Quran says about Christ appearances after his DBR.

Here's what the Bible says:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Corinthians 15:3-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:3-19&version=NKJV

So either Paul is a liar, as is everyone (over 500 others) who saw Jesus after His appearances to them post-resurrection, or Muhammad is lying. I'm going to say Muhammad is wrong on this, not Paul.

https://crossexamined.org/jesus-bible-quran-law-non-contradiction/
 

popsthebuilder

New member
They do not teach the same things. For example:

Quran 4:157-158

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

That's what the Quran says about Christ appearances after his DBR.

Here's what the Bible says:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Corinthians 15:3-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:3-19&version=NKJV

So either Paul is a liar, as is everyone (over 500 others) who saw Jesus after His appearances to them post-resurrection, or Muhammad is lying. I'm going to say Muhammad is wrong on this, not Paul.

https://crossexamined.org/jesus-bible-quran-law-non-contradiction/
What are you going on about?

The Spirit of GOD never died.

The Holy Temple was destroyed and raised back up.

This is not refuted by the Quran.

What teachings are you focusing on? The only one that is relevant is the teaching on what one does. Guess what! Both say to DO the same thing for the same reason.

the Quran doesn't refute that Jesus is the Messiah. It refutes that any can kill GOD.

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