glorydaz
Well-known member
Either that or He “lied” or led them on for a very good reason. He seemed “very clear” at other times as well, but not exactly crystal clear..
Postponed? Or planned out and misunderstood?
Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Dispensation of Grace?
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
Postponed? Or planned out and misunderstood?
Right Divider
Body part
Jesus was not lying. He cannot do that.
Jesus was completely clear with that statement.
God's hidden agenda has intervened.
glorydaz
Well-known member
If His hidden agenda intervened, why didn’t Paul know about it?
Especially since that “hidden agenda“ involved Paul.
What is a lie? Didn‘t you watch that video Clete put up?
You should because the answer is there.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Just wanted to add what Clete noted with his video.
“The error your making here is in the belief that it is always a sin to tell someone an untruth. It is not. I very strongly recommend you watch the following video. It's part of a series of videos on the subject and it is very very informative...”
Right Divider
Body part
I have no idea what you're talking about.
The hidden agenda was the dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul.
So of course Paul knew about it.
Eph 3:8-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (3:9) And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (3:12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Jesus was not lying.
glorydaz
Well-known member
So again. What hidden agenda?
More likely Matt. 10:23 is talking about the temple being destroyed in 70 AD. He returned in judgment then, didn’t He?
I thought you said you understood that we aren't Israel. ??
The Body of Christ will not see a single day of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble.
The rest of what you said there has already been refuted without response.
You REALLY need to read through some of that 88 Reason book! I'm telling ya, he got all 88 reasons wrong, one of which was this one you just gave.
The creation of a secular political entity is not the blooming of the fig tree. Jews have no more faith in Jesus Christ today than they had two millennia ago. If they had, they'd put their trust in His power, boot out the foolish Muslim God haters and rebuild God's temple. No! Israel is far away from anything that remotely looks like blooming with faith. Isreal today remains the fig tree without fruit that God cut down about a year after it was 'fertilized' with the Holy Spirit at their Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) (See Luke 13:6-9).
But!
When we, His Body, are raptured out and God turns again to Israel and His Spirit stirs the hearts of His people again, now that is going bring a bumper crop of figs, although not without a lot of pain and suffering as they are purged through the tribulation period.
Right Divider
Body part
I take it that you don't read my posts very carefully. Post #105 sentence #2
That's just you trying to read your ideas into scripture. It makes no sense at all.
In that passage, Jesus is encouraging them to persevere in their mission to reach all of Israel with their message. But then you say that in the middle of that encouragement, Jesus tells them that He's going to destroy the temple anyway.
Nope. How many "returns" do you think that there are?
Luke 19:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(19:12) He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
None of Jesus' returns are secret.Rev 1:7 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Right Divider
Body part
List: 17 Reasons Israel’s Prophecies are not Being Fulfilled in this Dispensation
We live in a mystery dispensation where the operation of God on the Earth is significantly different than it was during the dispensation of his prophetic purpose to Israel. Below are reasons that Israel’s prophecies concerning the coming judgment and Earthly kingdom will not be fulfilled during this dispensation.As better Bible teachers have said, to resolve the confusion of the “signs of the times” we must understand first the “times of the signs”. It is not until the time of this mystery dispensation is complete that the time of prophetic signs and fulfillment will continue according to God’s word.
Download this List: PDF
- The mystery was kept secret
If the mystery of Christ was kept secret during every prophetic utterance in since the world began, then prophecy cannot be what is happening during the mystery dispensation (Acts 3:21, Romans 16:25). What God hath separated let no man put together. - What is foretold is not kept secret
The end time events of judgment, kingdom, and prophetic fulfillment were foretold. If those prophesied days actually speak of days during the mystery dispensation then these days were spoken about before. This is contrary to the scripture when it speaks what is hidden and revealed. - God’s gospel is different
The gospel of the grace of God is free justification with no accompanying works. The kingdom gospel pertains to the new covenant which has required works of law written on their heart. - God’s operation is different
Some prophecies are about unbelievers, yet others require God’s intervention. The way he intervenes in prophecy is according to the promises and covenants. Yet, today God is not operating with humanity according to a covenants but by his grace. - God’s people are different
The church in prophecy was is the obedient nation of Israel. Today, the people of God are made up of Israel and Gentiles. There is neither Jew nor Greek. These are mutually exclusive. - God’s representation is different
Revelation and prophetic books talk about the priests of the Lord being the promised people of God. A characteristic of this dispensation is that there are no priests of the Lord. The church today as members of his body was not prophesied. - God’s purpose is different
The prophetic purpose was to set up God’s dominion on the Earth. That is not God’s purpose in this dispensation which is to build a new creature to inhabit heavenly dominions. - Israel is fallen in this dispensation
Romans 9-11 describe Israel’s spiritual fall. Prophetic fulfillment requires that Israel be given the position of spiritual and political prominence. - Salvation is sent to the Gentiles
Acts 28:28 tells plainly that salvation is sent to the Gentiles. Yet, according to prophecy the Jewish nation would be the evangelists of God’s salvation. - We are delivered from wrath to come
Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that we are delivered from wrath to come. The prophesied wrath on the Earth was a result of the covenant relationship between God and his people. - We are children of the day, not the night
1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 says that those in the “night” time are looking for signs. We are not in that time, but are rather children of the “day” time in history. We are not appointed to the coming judgment. - God is not imputing sins
The coming judgment on the earth is justified by the imputation of trespasses on the world. However, at this time God is not imputing trespasses to anyone (2 Cor 5:19). - It is the dispensation of God’s grace
The only events remaining on God’s prophetic calendar refer to his declaration of war upon the world that declared war on him 2000 years ago. You can not offer terms of peace in the dispensation of grace while at the same time declaring war. - Prophetic signs are global
Some think the prophecies contain only specific prophecies such as the mark of the beast or the antichrist, when actually they include the whole earth. The worldwide nature of some of the prophecies indicates that the prophesies would directly affect any church that was on Earth. - Prophecy is on a timetable
This hidden dispensation has no prophetic timetable associated with it. Paul declares the beginning of his message as being “out of due time”. Prophetic fulfillment is foretold to the month and year. - Prophecy is for Israel
Prophecy was a privilege to the nation Israel who required signs (1 Cor 1:22). There is no Israel today. It will be Israel’s prophets that will be sent to witness to the world during that time. - Israel today is not God’s Israel
Most point to 1948 creation of the state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy. However, these people who were gathered together by geopolitical forces reject the Messiah. Though they could many choose not to be saved by God’s grace without the law. Indeed, that message remains an offense to them. They are not the remnant of Israel that began at Pentecost.
This is an incomplete list of reasons why Israel’s prophecy is not being fulfilled today, but it emphasizes the doctrine of the difference between what was prophesied and what was kept secret (mystery).
Prophetic fulfillment will happen as literally as the Bible declares it to be. Many tell stories of prophetic fulfillment and use exaggerated language to ascribe Bible proof texts. This is not proper Bible application and should be avoided.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Saying it does not make it so. You should know that.
We aren’t Israel, but we aren’t blind to what has been going on with Israel. If you can’t see prophecy is being fulfilled as we speak then I can’t convince you otherwise.
Israel is the fig tree, and the first thing that had to happen was the Jews returning to their land. That is not just some pretend Israel. They are dry bones, not yet filled with the Spirit. But, You can think what you want.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I take it you don’t read my posts very carefully. In the middle of that sending out of the disciples, he let them know that the time was short. He knew that because He understood He would be coming back to execute judgment on Jerusalem. He knew it would be a horrible time and letting them know they needed to hurry because time was short….only 35 years approximately.
that’s the only way His words make sense.
He didn’t need to return in the flesh to execute judgement on the temple. I didn’t suggest that as a return.
Who sent the Romans to destroy the temple? No just a coincidence surely.
Are you actually trying to suggest that if they didn't hurry, it would take them 35 years to go through all the cities of Israel?
Take a look at these images and tell us seriously that you are, taking into consideration that they were instructed to just keep moving if their message was rejected, and that they had twelve people to spread the message.
Saying it doesn't make it so, GD.
There's another way.
Jesus meant EXACTLY what he said, that they would not be able to make it through all the cities before his return, that he intended to return within seven years. But the circumstances changed, and it became apparent that He could not return because of it.
Go read Jeremiah 18. It should give you an idea as to why.
The judgement of Jerusalem will be a physical judgement, with Christ returning on a white horse.
THAT NEVER HAPPENED!
His name was Vespasian.
He ordered his son, Titus, to lay siege to Jerusalem.
It wasn't Christ sending judgement.
It was men acting out their own wills.
Destroying the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD was NOT part of God's plan for Jerusalem.
As for why it WAS destroyed, but decades after I presume it would have been had the Time of Jacob's Trouble continued, I can only imagine that it has something to do with how God can bring about events in history, as though it were a ball of yarn that was being unraveled, and worked into a masterpiece, and the "destruction of the Temple" was one of the strings that was in the process of being weaved, but because circumstances changed, while the weaving stopped, that thread had already been started to be weaved in, and couldn't be removed, but events continued to where it all came unraveled.
In other words, God was going to accelerate the temple's destruction to occur before He returned, but due to the change in circumstances, it happened later.
Not that it's some sort of settled unchangeable event that must happen (as per a deterministic view), but because, I think, it's destruction by men's hands was inevitable, because men hate God, and what better way to thumb one's nose at God than to destroy His temple in His nation's capital city.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No I’m suggesting no such thing, but your conjecture is fine with me.
You‘re assuming more than I am, seems to me.
I prefer to have it make sense, and not assume God wasn’t in complete control the entire time.
Then what ARE you suggesting?
Jeremiah 18 doesn't make sense?
God is in control. Be He is not meticulously controlling everything at all times.
God allows men to behave as they will.
Right Divider
Body part
Destruction of the temple was not the kind of judgment that the prophecies talk about.
Had Israel accepted the Messiah, the tribulation would have commenced.
The tribulation required a temple per prophecy.
Matt 24:14-22 (AKJV/PCE)
(24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(24:16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (24:17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (24:18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (24:19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(24:16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (24:17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (24:18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (24:19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.The "holy place" is within the temple.
Where is "judgment on the temple" in prophecy?
Please quote the scripture that says that God sent the Romans to destroy the temple.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Can’t agree with you on that one. Jesus prophesying the destruction of the temple is talked about all the time.
Had Israel accepted the Messiah, the tribulation would have commenced.
The tribulation required a temple per prophecy.
Matt 24:14-22 (AKJV/PCE)(24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
The "holy place" is within the temple.
Where is "judgment on the temple" in prophecy?
Luke 21:5-6
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Do you think they did it on their own? Who holds the Jews to account for their rejection of their Messiah? It’s God who used chastens His children, and He always used the powerful to do it. But I‘ll research that for you. It shouldn’t be long and I love this topic.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh dear, you caught me in a double negative. Let me correct that. I was suggesting no such thing.
You asked, ”Are you actually trying to suggest that if they didn't hurry, it would take them 35 years to go through all the cities of Israel?”
And I have no clue what you mean by that. I don’t think it has a thing to do with their hurrying or not. Just that some would still be alive when the temple gets destroyed in 70 AD. Which He knew would happen because He Is God, and would see that it did happen.
Bladerunner
Active member
Good evening Right Divider....
Mat 24:15 is the beginning of another section. It goes with 24:16
Right Divider, My writings above are not to dispute your post but to give another interpretation fo the scripture. Thanks for the conversation.
Actually Dan 9:26 prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple....Mat 24:1-2, as Jesus went out from the Temple He prophesied that not one stone of the temple would be unturned..which is exactly what happened.
Hd Israel accepted the Messiah, the millennium (Heaven on Earth) would have began. Now the question should be.....what about you and what about me if that happened? But the Lord's Plans did not include the Millennium to happen and thus Jesus stopped preaching of it.
Mat 24:9-14 represents the time from Jesus to the present. ("this Gospel"--the Gospel of Jesus Christ) is to be preached to the world and then the end.....we are currently preaching His Gospel to the world and the end is very near according to prophecies.
Mat 24:15 is the beginning of another section. It goes with 24:16
This time period is within His 70th week. Notice, the mention of Judaea instead of simply Jerusalem. This also does not include all of Israel..The mountains to the south, Petra are most likely the ones Dan is speaking of here.Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
which temple....70 AD or 3.5 into Daniel's 70th week?
again which temple....as for 70AD temple, Daniel 9:26. This was given to Daniel by Gabriel thus straight from GOD as to what would happen..And happen it did.
Right Divider, My writings above are not to dispute your post but to give another interpretation fo the scripture. Thanks for the conversation.
Keep reading:
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 21:32-33 - New King James Version
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Guess what? Hardly any of the things Jesus spoke about happened. Heaven and earth did not pass away.
Jerusalem still stands, last I checked.
It has EVERYTHING to do with them hurrying!
Jesus told them to hurry to spread the message to all the cities in Israel, told them they wouldn't even be able to make it through all of them before His return, even telling them that if the people they speak to reject the message, to just keep moving! That alone indicates a VERY SWIFT RETURN!
35 years ISN'T SWIFT AT ALL!!!
So clearly, His return was expected within 7 years, at most 8, not 35 as you said, because they were already in the early stages of the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
Yet that's not what happened!
Jesus fully expected to return within a very short period of time. Certainly less than the few days it would take to spread His message to all the cities of Israel. It never happened. Something else happened, where after ONE YEAR, God chose Paul to take a different gospel to the Gentiles, a mystery kept secret since the foundation of the world.
Jeremiah 18 states in no uncertain terms that if God says he's going to bless a nation, and then they rebel, He will no longer do that which He said He would do. (and the reverse also).
God said He was going to bless them, and establish His Kingdom with them. But they rebelled, and God could no longer do that which He said He was going to do, and turned to working with the Gentiles instead.
All of this takes place in Acts 7-9.
One year after Christ told His disciples to go throughout all the cities of Israel.
Jesus spoke about this year-long period previously, in a parable, as a warning to Israel that if they do not bear fruit, He would cut them off.
Specifically, the parable of the barren fig tree:
He also spoke this parable: “A certain had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize And if it bears fruit, But if not, after that you can cut it down.’ ”
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 13:6-9 - New King James Version
The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree - He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut...
For three years Christ came, seeking fruit from Israel. He performed many miracles, but they largely had no effect. Then he was crucified, buried, raised, and per the advice of the Holy Spirit, gave them one more year. Pentecost occurs in Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit begins to dig around Israel and fertilize, and many are converted into the New Covenant. But overall, Israel largely rejected her Messiah, and the final straw was the stoning of Stephen, where Jesus was seen standing, STANDING, NOT SITTING, at the right hand of His Father, as though standing in judgement. (Compare later in 1 Peter 3:22 where He is described as sitting.)
Jesus had given the Holy Spirit a year to dig around, and to fertilize the fig tree that is Israel, but it still bore no fruit, so God cut off Israel and turned to work with the Gentiles.
Jesus warned Israel that if they rebelled, He could no longer do that which He said he would do.
They rebelled, and so while Christ said He would return quickly, well within their lifetimes, before they had even made it throughout all the cities of Israel, He could no longer do that which He said He would do, and thus His plans for Israel were put on hold.
In other words, it's entirely coincidence that Jerusalem was destroyed in 35 years later. It had absolutely nothing to do with prophecy. It had nothing to do with God bringing judgement upon Israel (though it in and of itself was a kind of judgement). It had nothing to do with the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
It was simply men putting down a rebellion in one of their controlled cities.
God had no hand in its destruction.