SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I've been searching for some gopher wood, just in case.
Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
I've been searching for some gopher wood, just in case.
It is right next to the ply trees.
Shasta
Well-known member
I should not have said it that way. God did not arbitrarily reject Israel. They (as a majority) rejected Jesus. Then the hardening/sleep/blindness fell on them but God has always preserved a faithful remnant of which Paul offers himself as evidence. This shows that God has not utterly rejected them (Romans 11:1-2). Into this plant he grafted believing Gentiles who became part of Israel spiritually (Romans 11:16-17) being united with the remnant by the blood of the New Covenant (Ephesians 2:12-14). Paul also says Israel (the majority presumably) shall one day be brought back (Romans 11:25-26)
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Shasta
Well-known member
You have made a lot of noise but overlooked the obvious. The scripture you cited occurred well in advance of the one I posted. They were separated in time and the events that lay between them changed how the disciples understood Jesus.
“For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.” 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said. Luke 18:31-32 32
The scripture I cited came from the 24th chapter of the same book after Jesus rose from then dead and during a visitation with the disciples. By that time He had already breathed into them the Holy Spirit (John 20:22)
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem (Luke 24:44-46)
Jesus said they were to proclaim.
1. repentence
2. for the forgiveness of sins
3. and that they were to begin this mission in Jerusalem then proceed to proclaim the message to all nations. He did not say to the Jews in all the nations but simply to all nations. The word "nations" in Hebrew is "goyim" or Gentiles.
4. Others had come to understand a lot about Jesus too. Those disciples on the Road to Emmaus got quite an education. Luke writes that: Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. (Luke 24:24)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You fail to address the fact that the epistle called First Corinthians was addressed not only to those at the church at Corinth but also all those in every place who call upon the name of Jesus Christ:
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).
All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this is what they were told by Paul:
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:
"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).
You just IGNORE the fact that the epistles was written to all those in every place who call on the name of the Lord Jesus. You obviously have no intelligent answer to this.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course you are trying to defend your idea that the words at 1 John 1:9 are addressed to unbelievers. But the Scriptures will be searched in vain where any unbeliever is told that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven!
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).
Do you tell unbelievers that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Where do you get such nonsense?
As I said earlier, the Hebrew believers had already received eternal life, a life which is in the Son:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
And here is what the Lord Jesus says about those to whom He has given eternal life:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
Those who already have eternal llife shall never perish so those who originally received John's first epistle enjoyed eternal security. That idea is supported by what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the Law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Those who believed at the time the Lord Jesus said those words received eternal life and were told that they will not come into judgment.
Dialogos
Well-known member
You should read the book of Galatians as clearly you never have.
Good book, you might pay attention to chapters 3 and 4.
heir
TOL Subscriber
It's almost as if you want to ignore the fact that the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Anyone who is in the Body of Christ got here by trusting the Lord believing IT for salvation. Further,more, I don't care what Mr. Stam has to say about anything. He didn't even believe the KJB is the pure words of the Lord. If you want to have a discussion with me, you can leave the commentaries out of it and actually post what YOU believe.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Watch it, buddy. They have to endure to the end to be saved.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I'm just wondering why Jerry hasn't done this yet.
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Shasta
Well-known member
Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their 2 fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Paul is saying that, though the majority of the Jews have stumbled (i.e., rejected Christ), they have not all fallen (i.e., irredeemably). To stumble is a precursor to falling but the consequences of falling away into apostacy is much worse. It would have meant God was through with national Israel as far as any relationship whatsoever. He believes however, that they still could be motivated to repent through seeing the spiritual richness of the lives of believing Gentiles, an inheritance that should have been theirs. In this way they could be "provoked to jealousy."
In Romans chapter 9 through 11 Paul addresses the idea of whether not the Jew's national rejection of Jesus and God's adoption of the Gentiles represented a failure of God's original plan. After all, had the prophets not said that salvation was to come to the Jews? Were the Jewish people not to be priests to the (Gentile) world? Without elaborating on this larger topic, I will stay focused rather on the subject of whether saved Gentiles can be regarded as a "spiritual" Israel.
I think this is clear from what Paul himself says.
Romans 11:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; Being naturally descended from Israel does not automatically make one a child of God (Romans 11:7) As Isaac was the chosen child not merely by virtue of his genetic relationship to Abraham since Ishmael was also his son genetically and, for that matter God could have raised children to Abraham from the stones. Isaac was the chosen son because he was the fruit of the word of promise which Abraham had received and believed. In verse eleven he makes the point that we did not merit God's calling (Romans 11:10-11) rather we believed and became God's children through spiritual birth. The spiritual descendents of Abraham and Israel are those Gentiles who have been grafted into Israel ( Phil. 3:3, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14, Galatians 3:27-29) through believing in the word of promise (Gal. 4:28)
If I am a Godless heathen because I do not believe the doctrines of MAD then I am in good company for no one before the 1800s believed it either. All the way back to the times of the Ante-Nicene Fathers no one knew that such a paradigm existed. Except for your narrow sect all have been "godless heathens" unbelievers and infidels. You think that is not an extreme position?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, if a person can keep the law perfectly then he can earn eternal life. But if a person fails on even one point he is guilty of all (James 2:10).
But here the Lord speaks of another way whereby a person can obtain eternal life, and notice that these words were addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Since you have no use for this verse you just IGNORE it. Or perhaps you just refuse to believe what the Lord and Savior Himself said there.
Instead, you want to quote a verse which you do not even understand, a verse which contradicts what the Lord said at John 5:24:
Watch it yourself!
This is not a doctrinal teaching because it is found in a narrative. Here the "context" demands that a physical salvation is in view (v.9) and the "end" obviously refers to the end of the great tribulation And it will be those who endure unto the end of the great tribulation who will be saved physically. Here is a passage which refers to that time:
"In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8,9).
Now I have answered your verse tell me why we should not believe that the following words of the Lord Jesus teaches that those who believe receive eternal life at the moment when they believe:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."
And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish." So please address the Lord Jesus'words at John 5:24.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You again attempt to change the subject. The discussion was in regard to whether or not the Twelve were in the Body of Christ. You fail to address the fact that the epistle called First Corinthians was addressed not only to those at the church at Corinth but also all those in every place who call upon the name of Jesus Christ:
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).
All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this is what they were told by Paul:
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Why do you continue to IGNORE this fact?
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heir
TOL Subscriber
You claim Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for yourself so why aren't you doing it?!
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
heir
TOL Subscriber
You can't show where Peter preached or believed the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Trusting the Lord believing the gospel of Christ is the ONLY WAY to enter the one Body of Christ and be baptized by one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). IT (the gospel of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Why do you continue to IGNORE this fact? Deal with IT
heir
TOL Subscriber
:mock: those who rely on the word of men
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once again you fail to even attempt to deal with what I said. The discussion is in regard to whether or not the Twelve were in the Body of Christ. You fail to address the fact that the epistle called First Corinthians was addressed not only to those at the church at Corinth but also all those in every place who call upon the name of Jesus Christ:
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).
All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this is what they were told by Paul:
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Why do you continue to IGNORE this fact?