Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

Shasta

Well-known member
Why is there two gospels mentioned post-cross;

Galatians 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

The way this scripture appears in some translations does sound like Paul is speaking of two messages, the problem is that the preposition OF does not precede "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" in the text. In fact the Greeks did not have a term that was exactly equivalent to the English proposition "of." They had propositions just not this one. Therefore this has to be interpreted.

Greek is a highly inflected language meaning that every time a person changed the grammatical function of a noun in a given sentence they also changed the spelling and that of its article (if it had one). When noun was used as the subject it had one ending and another if it became the direct object. A noun would also change if it appeared with various prepositions such as in, from, to, by and if the proposition was merely implied.

In this passage "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" have been written in the "genitive" case which is somewhat flexible. The many uses of it can be found on this chart:

http://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/genitive_case.pdf

which comes ultimately from Professor Daniel P. Wallace who among other subjects teaches NT Greek at Dallas Theological Seminary. He has also written books on NT Greek

Notice that in his list that most usages are not relevant to this passage. Two, however, might serve as valid translations: the Attributive Genitive and Objective Genitive. Attributive simply means the noun is used it attribute some quality to the other noun. It functions like an adjective. Assuming this to be the correct intent of the author "uncircumcision" and "circumcision" would be used to describe the noun "gospel." It would be defining it is some fundamental way. The Enlish proposition "of" could be used to help convey this meaning. This is the translation favored by MAD proponents.

It is by no means the only one or even the most contextually appropriate. The other possibility is that "uncircumcision" and "circumcision" are used as direct objects (the Objective Genitive) and would be the recipient of an "action." In this instance the the writer would not be saying there were two qualitatively different gospels but that they were directed at populations. Since "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" also meant Gentiles and Jews this could easily be the case. Pauls and Peter's messages were to go to those groups. The English prepositions consistent with this would be "to" or "for"

Many modern translators have favored this translation. Here are examples from various translations of Galatians 2:7

NASB But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised

HCSBOn the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter was for the circumcised,
NIVOn the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.
NET Bible
On the contrary, when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was to the circumcised

If you wonder what the opinions of a truly great Greek scholar on the language and meaning of this verse is read A. T. Robertson
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/galatians/galatians-2-7.html

When KJV used the"of" they were not trying to imply that there were dual gospels since. They wrote centuries before MAD was a glint in Bullinger's eye. The text they used was not different on this verse than the ones commonly used by modern translation. In addition I think it is highly unlikely that people of the 1600s knew the languages better than are modern scholars.

We can go back even further, before Bullinger, before the reformers back to the first and second centuries to a time when Early Christians still spoke Koine Greek and read the gospels, the Book of Acts and Paul's writings (even this very passage) in the languages in which they were written. None of them ever suggested that there were two gospels, a duplex gospel of any kind. I keep asking about this. It is like hearing rumors of a UFO but when you actually drive to the spot, look around carefully and interview the neighbors nobody knows what you are talking about. No media source affirms that any such thing happened. Now either every memory of the supposed event has been removed from their mind (which suggests conspiracy) or else the event belongs to lore and myth by some person or persons who was not there.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
The way this scripture appears in some translations does sound like Paul is speaking of two messages,...

"Greek is..."
Greek is your final authority. Poor dear, doesn't have the pure words of the Lord (or should I say, rejects it).
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Amazing and wrong twisting of truth!

The verses that speak of the "circumcision of Christ," have nothing to do with Christ being imputed with sin or literally circumcised. Rather:

Jesus Christ "circumcises" the hearts of His redeemed people (Romans 2:29), through the gift of faith in His Person via His powers of pardon, reconciliation, and justification. All accomplished on the cross.

Such is "the circumcision of Christ": Romans 15:8, Galatians 5:6, 6:15; Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11, 3:11

Dear lady, circumcision is cutting off of flesh.

The Lords spirit went back to the Father, his soul went to hell, and his body went to the grave...according to scripture.

This is how the body of the sins of the flesh was destroyed. 2 Cor 5:19 (KJV). Who were they imputed to? Why did it please the Father to bruise him? How did he bare our sins in his body on the tree?

This is the circumcision of Christ, which the context of Col 2 will bear out. He was circumcised without hands, and baptized without hands on that day.

The LORD circumcising a heart is something entirely different.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Why do you continue to sin (without a license)?

Uh, uh, I know.


Romans 7:18-25 King James Version (KJV)

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Those two are different. Who Christ was is not the same as what Christ did.

Romans 1:1-4 is the gospel of God; who Christ is and that God raised Him from the dead.

It is not the gospel of Christ; the what of the cross, that Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

The gospel that Paul preached was a mystery hidden in the scriptures, the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) until given by revelation of Jesus Christ (the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ) to and through the apostle Paul (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV)The gospel that was preached in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23 KJV, Matthew 9:35 KJV, Mark 1:14 KJV) not Paul's my gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV)

What Christ did and Who He was are not the same but what He did was certainly contingent upon who He was. For instance, if He did not have a divine origin He could not have become the Lamb who mediated between God and man.

First you say Romans 1:1-4 is and example of the general Petrine Gospel. A little later, in Romans 1:16, the Pauline gospel is being presented. So without announcement or introduction Paul switches to the different message. This does not even sound like good writing though I suspect its the hermeneutics that are not sound. I mean what internal evidence is there? From what I can tell there is none. In order to arrive at the conclusions demanded by MAD the pre-suppositions have to be in place before you read the text. Otherwise I do not think a casual reader would see it.

Also your have said I Corinthians 15:1-4 is a specifically Pauline gospel while. Again on what basis do you do so? As a matter of fact according to the consensus of modern scholarship Paul did not compose these verses. He wrote it down but it did not originate from him. The non-Pauline language, cadence and formulaic language of these verses suggest that it was a pre-Pauline creed or statement of faith, The terminology "what I received I passed on" pertains specifically to the way Rabbis passed on their teachings to their disciples through oral memorization and recitation. To have become systematized by the time of the epistle it would have needed to become crystallized and disseminated very early within, perhaps, five years of the cross.

http://carm.org/analysis-pre-pauline-creed-1-corinthians-151-11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Corinthians_15

This and the other creedal statements in Paul's writings cannot have represented his independent revelations since they were around before he was a believer. He had, after all, learned them from others.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 15 and the one in Romans 1 are very similar to the point of being indistinguishable as can be seen when they are juxtaposed.

1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 1:1-4)

In 1 Corinthians 15:3 after introducing his message as the "good news or gospel" the Apostle almost immediately links what Christ did to what was foretold in the Scriptures.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
Read Brown's book. A teaching that makes grace a license to sin is contrary to what Paul taught about grace. There is a heresy in the modern church that has a grace teaching that is extra/contrabiblical.

I don't know why you would say that since it's exactly what Paul addressed in Romans chapters 5-7. The Jews had been claiming his teachings on grace would do exactly that. He proved the error of that thinking when he taught the law actually was used by sin to make sin exceedingly sinful. His point was clear that righteousness never comes from the law.



Instead of being lazy, become familiar with the winds of doctrine, fads, fallacies in the modern church.

Rejecting extreme Word of Faith (as you do) teaching is not rejecting biblical faith (same with hyper-grace vs grace).

Why in the world would anyone want to become "familiar" with false doctrines? The more error you are exposed to the greater the chance will be that you will be led astray.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Dear lady, circumcision is cutting off of flesh.

The Lords spirit went back to the Father, his soul went to hell, and his body went to the grave...according to scripture.

This is how the body of the sins of the flesh was destroyed. 2 Cor 5:19 (KJV). Who were they imputed to? Why did it please the Father to bruise him? How did he bare our sins in his body on the tree?

This is the circumcision of Christ, which the context of Col 2 will bear out. He was circumcised without hands, and baptized without hands on that day.

The LORD circumcising a heart is something entirely different.

:e4e:
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The way this scripture appears in some translations does sound like Paul is speaking of two messages...

If you bothered reading the rest of the Bible, this one part would make much more sense to you and you would try to pick something simple apart.

If it is two groups but not two messages, then why did Paul go to the Jew first, then the gentile? Peter did the same thing.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Greek is your final authority. Poor dear, doesn't have the pure words of the Lord (or should I say, rejects it).

KJVO is nonsense. SomeKJVO actually say that if the KJV contradicts Greek, the Greek is wrong. KJV is based on Greek MSS.

Any translation must be judged by the underlying MSS. KJV translators understood this and would all disagree with the modern KJVO heresy. The original autographs predate KJV by centuries and are where the authority lies, reflected in the wealth of MSS evidence. KJV simply did not have all of the MSS and scholarship evidence we have today. Claiming KJV alone is Word of God alone is the logical fallacy of begging the question contradicted by evidence.

MAD and KJVO are anti-intellectual and thrive on ignorance. This is arrogance, not rightly dividing the Word or upholding it.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Anything, but compare spiritual things with spiritual and believe the KJB means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it.

Mormons and JWs use KJV. Even if it was the only Bible, it still needs to be interpreted properly. KJVO adherents use it exclusively, but are all over the map doctrinally. Don't be naive and simplistic.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
If you bothered reading the rest of the Bible, this one part would make much more sense to you and you would try to pick something simple apart.

If it is two groups but not two messages, then why did Paul go to the Jew first, then the gentile? Peter did the same thing.

I have offered linguistic and historical evidence that contradicts what you say and rather than commenting specifically on any of the objections I raised, you just ignored them and offered rude comments. I mentioned only a few scriptures it is true but I think a well constructed doctrinal system should make sense in verses, passages, books as well as in the context of the whole Bible. It should not be so easy to deconstruct it.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
If you bothered reading the rest of the Bible, this one part would make much more sense to you and you would try to pick something simple apart.

If it is two groups but not two messages, then why did Paul go to the Jew first, then the gentile? Peter did the same thing.

Why did I go to my home city and friends first when I was saved before I went to Iceland, LA, St. Lucia?

A ministry pattern used by Jesus, Paul, early church is a missionary strategy, not proof of multiple post-cross messages. There is only one message centered on Christ's death/resurrection, NOT two. This is so basic that few question it leaving MAD as an obscure, fringe idea with no traction.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I have offered linguistic and historical evidence that contradicts what you say and rather than commenting specifically on any of the objections I raised, you just ignored them and offered rude comments. I mentioned only a few scriptures it is true but I think a well constructed doctrinal system should make sense in verses, passages, books as well as in the context of the whole Bible. It should not be so easy to deconstruct it.

Like JWs, MAD is not interested in evidence contrary to its view. It is selective and ignores credible research in favour of simplistic, non-evidence based ideas.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Dear lady, circumcision is cutting off of flesh.

The Lords spirit went back to the Father, his soul went to hell, and his body went to the grave...according to scripture.

Would you say He was wholly sanctified in the way Paul talks about here? In His humanity preserved blameless?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
 
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