Is God Truly All Powerful?

[Lighthouse]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. You've answered all my questions. You set temporal constraints for your God, because you can't stomach the idea of predestination, but in doing so, you put limits on your God, and strip Him of His omnipotence.

I didn't set anything. Pagans came up with the idea of a timeless eternal now. It is nopt found in the Bible. In fact, teh Bible shows the opposite. Omniscience is knowing all tha can be known. Omnipotence is being able to do all that can be done. And Omnipresence is being able to be everywhere that exists.

Is God in Wonderland?

 

[Clete]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. You've answered all my questions. You set temporal constraints for your God, because you can't stomach the idea of predestination, but in doing so, you put limits on your God, and strip Him of His omnipotence.

Our view of God is Biblical. It is not contrived to rid ourselves of predestination. We believe in predestination as it is taught in the Bible, not as it is taught by Calvinism. God is holy and He is therefore just and He loves us. This is our (or at least my) primary starting point with my view of God. Anything that would render this meaningless or incorrect must be wrong. Calvinisms version of predestination definately makes God unjust (for several reasons) and it is therefore wrong. But as for the existence of time and God being outside of it, I reject that purely on the basis that it is irrational and that the Bible simply doesn't demand that we believe such things. The whole idea is derived from the faulty premise that God is immutable. Faulty premise, faulty conclusion.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lighthouse]

As far as God sinning, nothing God does is a sin, because God does it. It's not that God can't sin, he just defines what is and is not sin, therefore everything God does is not sin.

:dizzy::hammer::bang::doh::kookoo:

If that's not circular reasoning, I don't know what is.

 

[Clete]

As far as God sinning, nothing God does is a sin, because God does it. It's not that God can't sin, he just defines what is and is not sin, therefore everything God does is not sin.

This is also irrational. Ever heard of Euthephro's dilemma?
God is not arbitrary. If He were, He would be unjust. God cannot become a man and act like Hitler and remain a holy God. That would be irrational.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Caledvwlch]

:dizzy::hammer::bang::doh::kookoo:

If that's not circular reasoning, I don't know what is.

It's not circular reasoning. God simply is, correct? Everything God does is just and holy. Sin is defined on the basis of God's holiness.

 

[Caledvwlch]

Thanks guys. I'm done here. Good talk as always.

Peace

 

[Lighthouse]

Are you saying that God can murder, and it is not wrong? Or that God can not murder, because He is righteous?

 

[Caledvwlch]

Are you saying that God can murder, and it is not wrong? Or that God can not murder, because He is righteous?

Both. We don't need to understand it. He's God.

 

[Humanoid]

Well, eternal punishment, isn't that murder?

 

[Lighthouse]

Both. We don't need to understand it. He's God.

:darwinsm:

 

[Lighthouse]

Well, eternal punishment, isn't that murder?

No.

1] Murder requires death. Eternal punishment requires that there is no ultimate death [destruction].
2] God is not responsible for people going to hell.
3] Not all Christians beleive in eternal conscious torment.

 

[Caledvwlch]

:darwinsm:

:nananana:

 

[Humanoid]

Ok, murder requires death, but don't you think if you had the choice between being murdered or to be forever in torment, you would not prefer murder? Eternal punishment is much worse than death is it not?

"2. God is not responsible for people going to hell"

Well this brings forth an interesting arguement I read in another thread. The arguement that if you knew your future child would be forever in torment, would you still conceive that child?

Now, this is not a question of responsibility, nor is it a question of knowing for certain.

Think about it, say you want to have 10 kids, but you knew for certain that SOME of those kids, actually perhaps as many as half of them, perhaps even more, would be forever tormented in hell, would you still go ahead and have ANY kids??

I certainly would not. Do you understand why I would not?

 

[Lighthouse]

Cal-
What you said was a cop out, and you know it.

 

[Caledvwlch]

It wasn't a cop-out. Who are we to fathom God? Not believing in predestination is a cop-out. You have two choices. A God who is all-knowing and all-powerful, who predestines people to burn and hell. Or you have a God who is not all-powerful, and historically speaking is kind of helpless, and therefore not God at all.

 

[Lighthouse]

Ok, murder requires death, but don't you think if you had the choice between being murdered or to be forever in torment, you would not prefer murder? Eternal punishment is much worse than death is it not?

"2. God is not responsible for people going to hell"

Well this brings forth an interesting arguement I read in another thread. The arguement that if you knew your future child would be forever in torment, would you still conceive that child?

Now, this is not a question of responsibility, nor is it a question of knowing for certain.

Think about it, say you want to have 10 kids, but you knew for certain that SOME of those kids, actually perhaps as many as half of them, perhaps even more, would be forever tormented in hell, would you still go ahead and have ANY kids??

I certainly would not. Do you understand why I would not?

Yes, I understand completely. But that would pretty much mean not having any kids at all, wouldn't it?

Anyway, I am one of the Christians that doesn't believe in eternal punishment. I believe in the ultimate destruction of all that is not in Christ.

I also believe that God does not know who will and who will not go to hell. Well, He knows who is His, and that none of them will go to hell. But He doesn't know who will be His, until they are His.

 

[Humanoid]

Funny how dictionaries have it all wrong lol......

God
"A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions."

 

[Lighthouse]

It wasn't a cop-out. Who are we to fathom God? Not believing in predestination is a cop-out. You have two choices. A God who is all-knowing and all-powerful, who predestines people to burn and hell. Or you have a God who is not all-powerful, and historically speaking is kind of helpless, and therefore not God at all.

That's complete and utter crap. God knows all that can be known, and can do all that can be done. And that means knowing more than us, and being able to do that which we can not do. But it does not mean He can know that which can not be known, nor than He can do that which can not be done. You still haven't answered my question: Is God in Wonderland?

 

[Humanoid]

Yes, I understand completely. But that would pretty much mean not having any kids at all, wouldn't it?
Anyway, I am one of the Christians that doesn't believe in eternal punishment. I believe in the ultimate destruction of all that is not in Christ.

I would like to ask this question then to someone who does believe in eternal punishment. I would be very interested in hearing their thoughts on this.

 

[Lighthouse]

Funny how dictionaries have it all wrong lol......

God
"A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions."

That's correct. God is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. He is the creator and ruler of the universe.