Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[Nick M]

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord......

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first (Protos). 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first (protos) Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Paul is the prototype. The first to be baptized BY the Holy Spirit into Christ. There is no law for him, and as such, he blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is gone.

 

[Nick M]

That man is Jewish. and what is wrong with God dealing with people differently in the dispensations that are apparent in the Bible?

I didn't say there is anything wrong with it. You have a familiar spirit shielding your eyes. I stated that is what he did. I didn't render judgment. If I do, I would approve.

 

[Bladerunner]

Correct. We are justified by the cross, but the starting point for the church is with Paul. Paul explicitly states this.

When the Law of Moses stopped (with John, the Baptist), Jesus started preaching the Kingdom of Heaven. Early in Matthew we see this. Yet, the nation of Israel rejected Jesus and put Him on the Cross. The first rejection was the beheading of John the Baptist (God the Father sent John to Introduce His Son), The Second rejection of the Messiah, The King of Israel was the crucifixion of God (the Son) and the third rejection was the killing of Stephen in Acts 7:54-60 (God, the Holy Spirit). Until this time there were Judaizers (believing in the Law), Messianic Jews, (believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Faith Alone). It is obvious that the Holy Spirit came into these believers in Acts 2. They became the Saints of His Church (His Body, His Bride to be)Those of us who are still alive, await eagerly the rapture and/or death. For in Death we will be out of body and with Jesus in Heaven. All the Judaizers who have died await the Final White Throne Judgement in the Depths of Hell until that time. Paul had it right in his sermon to the Galatia church (Gal 3:28). His Church (His Body) will contain both Jew and Gentile which will become one body, His Body..their future destiny is Heavenly(with Jesus at all times)

 

[Bladerunner]

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord......

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first (Protos). 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first (protos) Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Paul is the prototype. The first to be baptized BY the Holy Spirit into Christ. There is no law for him, and as such, he blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is gone.

The first gentile in the Bible was an Ethiopian (Acts 8:25:40). Paul most certainly did lose his blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Might I add, sometime had passed before the first Gentile became a member of the Body of Christ.

For unless, one believes there are two "bodies of Christ" churches (one for Jews and one for Gentiles) there be only one church that Jesus built. thereby what one believes as to the starting date of the His Church is really in the interpretation for it all comes down to this: Believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of GOD, who died for our sins and gave us the gift of Salvation through His Grace. How many believers are there in His Church, I do not know but am glad to know and be a part of the brothers and sisters in this forum.

 

[Derf]

Peter at Pentecost repeated it. James in his letter repeated it. Leaders of the circumcision that BELIEVED repeated it in Acts 15.

James said Abraham was justified by offering up his son. He didn't say it was evidence of his faith, something you don't understand in the prior paragraph. He said Abraham was justified by works.

Paul said by no works be man justified.

On the surface it is a contradiction. But really it is God dealing differently with different people. Paul tells you why. To drive Israel to jealousy, as they are required to keep the law of Moses. If they don't, the times of refreshing will not come for the nation of Israel.

James is not saying the Jews are justified by the works of the law--Abraham didn't have the law. He's saying that if your faith doesn't produce works, it is powerless to save. Real faith produces real works. Works can't produce faith, but faith will always produce works, or it isn't real faith.

 

[Right Divider]

The first gentile in the Bible was an Ethiopian (Acts 8:25:40).

What can you possibly mean by "first gentile"? There were tons of gentiles in Genesis through Acts.

The Ethiopian in Acts 8 was most likely a Jew that traveled to Jerusalem for the lawfully required feast.

Paul most certainly did lose his blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

You need to be more clear.

Might I add, sometime had passed before the first Gentile became a member of the Body of Christ.

Time passed between what and what?

For unless, one believes there are two "bodies of Christ" churches (one for Jews and one for Gentiles) there be only one church that Jesus built. thereby what one believes as to the starting date of the His Church is really in the interpretation for it all comes down to this: Believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of GOD, who died for our sins and gave us the gift of Salvation through His Grace. How many believers are there in His Church, I do not know but am glad to know and be a part of the brothers and sisters in this forum.

The "church" that Jesus was talking about had a distinction between Jew (plus proselytes) and gentiles.
The church which is His body (i.e., the body of Christ) makes no distinction between Jew and Greek.

 

[JudgeRightly]

James is not saying the Jews are justified by the works of the law--

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:24 - New King James Version

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

www.biblegateway.com

If you DO something in order to obtain something, that is a work.

Someone is justified by works, according to James.

Paul says:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:2 - New King James Version

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

www.biblegateway.com

Notice that both passages talk about works. Period. Not "works of the law."

If either or both passage said "works of the law," then you'd have an argument.

But "works of the law" are just a specific kind of work." They fall under the category of "works."

If you "work" to obtain justification, then you have something to boast of, but not before God.

In other words: If you are justified by works, it doesn't matter what kind of work it is. It's still a work.

Abraham didn't have the law.

He didn't?

So Acts 17 was just a dream sequence or something? I bet you Abraham would beg to differ...

A covenant is a kind of law. Circumcision is symbolic of the law.

Abraham had to circumcise. Just like the Israelites had to keep the law (which included circumcision). And if he didn't circumcise his house, he'd be in a lot of trouble! Moses was almost killed because he didn't circumcise his sons.

That sounds a lot like a law with punishments to me!

 

[Nick M]

James said Abraham was justified by offering up his son.

James is not saying the Jews are justified by the works of the law--Abraham didn't have the law.

Why is this so hard sometimes? Do you see the problem with your rebuttal? And James asked rhetorically, because the answer is yes!

 

[Derf]

Why is this so hard sometimes? Do you see the problem with your rebuttal? And James asked rhetorically, because the answer is yes!

No, I don't see the problem. James was saying that faith produces works, so in that sense, Abraham was justified by works. But the sense is that he was justified by faith, which is always and only shown by works. Paul never suggested that we are justified by a kind of faith that doesn't produce good works, else he wouldn't have said "Love one another."

 

[Bladerunner]

What can you possibly mean by "first gentile"? There were tons of gentiles in Genesis through Acts.

The first gentile in the Church (his Body) at Pentecost was the Ethiopian according tot he Word of GOD. God made a point to pick out this person from the rest of the Gentiles you speak of.

The Ethiopian in Acts 8 was most likely a Jew that traveled to Jerusalem for the lawfully required feast.

The Bible does not tell us that...No sense in speculating is there?

You need to be more clear.
a
Time passed between what and what?

From Penetecost until Acts 8 was the time period I was speaking of.

The "church" that Jesus was talking about had a distinction between Jew (plus proselytes) and gentiles.
The church which is His body (i.e., the body of Christ) makes no distinction between Jew and Greek.

That is exactly the Church that is born at Pentecost. Those of us who are part of that church are ONE neither Jew nor Gentile...so regardless of when you are saying this church (His Body, His Betrothed Bride) began, we are speaking of the same thing.

 

[Right Divider]

The first gentile in the Church (his Body) at Pentecost was the Ethiopian according tot he Word of GOD.

Firstly, the church which is His body did NOT start at Pentecost (i.e., that lawfully required Jewish feast day).

God made a point to pick out this person from the rest of the Gentiles you speak of.

You are completely and totally confused.

Paul was the FIRST member of the body of Christ. He said so and I believe God's word.

1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. ​

Paul is the PATTERN for the body of Christ, being its FIRST member.

The Bible does not tell us that...No sense in speculating is there?

That's funny... considering that YOU are speculating about him being a member of the body of Christ.

He was reading the JEWISH scripture and following the JEWISH commands.

From Penetecost until Acts 8 was the time period I was speaking of.

That period in the scripture was totally and completely Jewish.

That is exactly the Church that is born at Pentecost.

Complete and total nonsense.

Those of us who are part of that church are ONE neither Jew nor Gentile...

After Paul as the PATTERN!

Pentecost was JEWISH... it was a JEWISH feast day required by JEWISH law!

so regardless of when you are saying this church (His Body, His Betrothed Bride) began, we are speaking of the same thing.

Nope... you are totally and completely WRONG.

 

[Bladerunner]

Firstly, the church which is His body did NOT start at Pentecost (i.e., that lawfully required Jewish feast day).

You are completely and totally confused.

Paul was the FIRST member of the body of Christ. He said so and I believe God's word.

1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. ​

Paul is the PATTERN for the body of Christ, being its FIRST member.

That's funny... considering that YOU are speculating about him being a member of the body of Christ.

He was reading the JEWISH scripture and following the JEWISH commands.

That period in the scripture was totally and completely Jewish.

Complete and total nonsense.

After Paul as the PATTERN!

Pentecost was JEWISH... it was a JEWISH feast day required by JEWISH law!

Nope... you are totally and completely WRONG.

Do you have Jews that believe in Jesus Christ in your Church?

 

[Right Divider]

Do you have Jews that believe in Jesus Christ in your Church?

Gal 3:28 (KJV) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
​

 

[Derf]

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:24 - New King James Version

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

www.biblegateway.com

If you DO something in order to obtain something, that is a work.

Someone is justified by works, according to James.

No, he's saying they are justified by faith, which produces works. Read it again. And don't forget this part:
James 2:26 KJV — For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
If there is no spirit, the body ceases to function. There's no point in a spiritless body, just as there is no point in a worksless faith. So Abraham SHOWED his faith by his works, but it was his faith that saved him. Yet, the evidence was in his works.
James 2:18 KJV — Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Paul says:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:2 - New King James Version

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

www.biblegateway.com

Notice that both passages talk about works. Period. Not "works of the law."

If either or both passage said "works of the law," then you'd have an argument.

Ok. The point is about works anyway, not the law.

But "works of the law" are just a specific kind of work." They fall under the category of "works."

If you "work" to obtain justification, then you have something to boast of, but not before God.

In other words: If you are justified by works, it doesn't matter what kind of work it is. It's still a work.

I agree. But that's not what James is saying.

He didn't?

So Acts 17 was just a dream sequence or something?

Please explain.

I bet you Abraham would beg to differ...

A covenant is a kind of law. Circumcision is symbolic of the law.

Abraham had to circumcise. Just like the Israelites had to keep the law (which included circumcision). And if he didn't circumcise his house, he'd be in a lot of trouble! Moses was almost killed because he didn't circumcise his sons.

That sounds a lot like a law with punishments to me!

Paul says he didn't have the law.
Romans 5:13-14 KJV — (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
IOW, there was a law in the garden, and there was a law when Moses came, but not in the interim, yet death still occurred.

 

[Bladerunner]

Gal 3:28 (KJV) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

​

the Church (His Body) also was of this. So now we have two churches, that follow Gal 3:28. Ok as long as you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ how He died for your sins, was buried and resurrected three days later as the Gospels have said. 1 Cor, 15:3-4, "according to the Scriptures".

 

[Right Divider]

the Church (His Body) also was of this. So now we have two churches, that follow Gal 3:28. Ok as long as you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ how He died for your sins, was buried and resurrected three days later as the Gospels have said. 1 Cor, 15:3-4, "according to the Scriptures".

Your confusion is sad, but typical of most of Churchianity today.