Is Enyart worshipped like Jesus

[beanieboy]

It is loving to mock and insult evil people. If it were not God would not have done it repeatedly in the Bible.

Here is an example. It goes against what Christ taught, and what is taught in Roman 12.

You guys are going to have to do better than this. This post is nothing more than "Bob is wrong because I don't like what he says and how he says it." If Bob is truly wrong than I trully want to know about it (and so does he, by the way) but you've got to get more substantive than this or you have no chance of convincing anyone of anything.

Resting in Him,
Clete

A friend last night said to me, "People can make the bible say whatever they want it to say."

That's true. People kill in the name of God. After all, Elijah did it, so why shouldn't they? God destroyed whole cities, so why shouldn't they?

One can twist the bible to say whatever you want it to say, but when it is false, such as mocking out of love, that hate is love, it simply doesn't ring true in one's heart.

So, they look to Enyart to back them up. They look to others who agree to back them up.
But it isn't God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit or the bible that is backing them up. It is simply twisted the way Satan did when tempting Jesus.

 

[Clete]

Does Enyart say that it is okay to hate sinners?

Yes and so does God.

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.​

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

Is this really biblical, or contrary to what Christ says?

That's what we are here to figure out. So far no one has demonstrated that anything Bob teaches is unbiblical or contrary to what Jesus siad.

Does Enyart say that God's love is conditional - that he only loves Christians, and not the unsaved?

No, Bob does not say this.

It's not Enyart that I have a problem with. It's that he has many followers that follow what he says, or the twisted things he claims the bible to say, and therefore, twists the hearts of men.

In short, he is a modern day Pharisee, and Jesus was very, very angry at the Pharisees because they were misleading people away from God.

You just contradicted yourself and made yourself a hypocrite all in one breath. You don't even see though, do you? Pathetic. :nono:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Johnny]

Clete, could you respond to http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=771957&postcount=434

 

[Johnny]

Yes and so does God. [hate sinners]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world...

Romans 5:7-8 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

Also, explain to me how you can both love and hate your neighbor.

 

[Clete]

Here is an example. It goes against what Christ taught, and what is taught in Roman 12.

Saying it doesn't make it so beanie. Prove it.

A friend last night said to me, "People can make the bible say whatever they want it to say."

That's true. People kill in the name of God. After all, Elijah did it, so why shouldn't they? God destroyed whole cities, so why shouldn't they?

One can twist the bible to say whatever you want it to say, but when it is false, such as mocking out of love, that hate is love, it simply doesn't ring true in one's heart.

Your heart is perverted and evil beanie, of course it doesn't "ring true in your heart". Fortunately we don't have to rely on such mamby pamby nonsense and what we "feel in our heart". We have the inspired Word of God to teach us truth. What we think or feel about it is irrelevant.

So, they look to Enyart to back them up. They look to others who agree to back them up.
But it isn't God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit or the bible that is backing them up. It is simply twisted the way Satan did when tempting Jesus.

This is an outragious lie! I have not quoted a single word of Bob Enyart's on this thread. I have made sound arguments for Scripture and Spripture alone, all of which have gone unanswered. This is called an ad hominem argument and it will not fly with me. You may convince some feeble-minded troll of something with such a tactic but that doesn't mean you've proven your case again Bob in the slightest.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beanieboy]

Yes and so does God.

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.​

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

That's what we are here to figure out. So far no one has demonstrated that anything Bob teaches is unbiblical or contrary to what Jesus siad.

No, Bob does not say this.

It's not Enyart that I have a problem with. It's that he has many followers that follow what he says, or the twisted things he claims the bible to say, and therefore, twists the hearts of men.


You just contradicted yourself and made yourself a hypocrite all in one breath. You don't even see though, do you? Pathetic. :nono:

Resting in Him,
Clete

Another example, Poly.
Clete hates in the name of God.
Are we to love our neighbor, or hate our neighbor?

If you want to hate, you follow Enyart.
If you want to follow Christ, you are called to love.

Clete claims that love and hate are not mutually exclusive.
Occording to the dictionary, they are. One cannot love what they detest.
Yet, with some bizarre mental gymastics, you can convince yourself that hate is a form of love.

 

[Clete]

Clete, could you respond to http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=771957&postcount=434

Yes, as soon as time allows. Thanks for pointing me to it, I had missed it.

 

[beanieboy]

Romans 12:

1Therefore (A)I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to (B)present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

2And do not (C)be conformed to (D)this world, but be transformed by the (E)renewing of your mind, so that you may (F)prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

3For through (G)the grace given to me I say to everyone among you (H)not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to (I)each a measure of faith.

4For (J)just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

5so we, (K)who are many, are (L)one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

6Since we have gifts that (M)differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if (N)prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

7if (O)service, in his serving; or he who (P)teaches, in his teaching;

8or he who (Q)exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with [a](R)liberality; (S)he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with (T)cheerfulness.

9Let (U)love be without hypocrisy (V)Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

10Be (W)devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another (X)in honor;

11not lagging behind in diligence, (Y)fervent in spirit, (Z)serving the Lord;

12(AA)rejoicing in hope, (AB)persevering in tribulation, (AC)devoted to prayer,

13(AD)contributing to the needs of the saints, (AE)practicing hospitality.

14(AF)Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

15(AG)Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.

16(AH)Be of the same mind toward one another; (AI)do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly (AJ)Do not be wise in your own estimation.

17(AK)Never pay back evil for evil to anyone (AL)Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

18If possible, (AM)so far as it depends on you, (AN)be at peace with all men.

19(AO)Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "(AP)VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

20"(AQ)BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


This entire passage is about overcoming evil with good.
Clete claims that I have perverted the message, because it isn't about being kind, and compassionate and living in harmony with one another, but "abhoring what is evil", or in other words, hating unbelievers.

That is a perverted twist on this passage. That is following Enyart over Jesus.

 

[Granite]

Short on love, short on Jesus, loooong on the law. I see that a lot in theonomic thinking.

 

[Clete]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world...

Romans 5:7-8 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Exactly, so either God is contradicting Himself or else love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

Also, explain to me how you can both love and hate your neighbor.

Well okay, let's use a not so inflamatory example so as to keep the conversation from denagrating into chaos.

Let's say that your neighbor (someone you know) claims to be a believer in Jesus but no evidence of such belief exists within a million miles of the guy. The most loving thing you could do is to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is not saved and treat him accordingly. Otherwise, you may walk him very nicely straight into Hell forever.
And like I said, that's a really tame example. For those who are guilty of more egregious things then more aggressive reactions would be called for. Paul, for example, tells us to excommunicate people who claim to be believers and who commit sexual sin. That's not very nice at all is it? But is certainly is loving. Your removing them from your fellowship is by far the most loving thing that you could possibly do, especially if you have a close relationship with them that they value. The worse the offense, the more it should cost them to commit it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Of course we are commanded to be His followers and to imitate Him within the boundaries He sets forth. But no, we don't always have the right or authority to behave like God. You've already admitted to that.

Right, so we agree that one could go too far. Bob himself would agree with this and has repeated warned against it in his Bible studies.

By definition it cannot be ungodly. As to whether or not it is unloving is a different question. Some would argue that God is always loving. Yet He hated Esau, even before Esau was born. There are a few instances of God's hate in the Old Testament. We are commanded to love.

Did you not see my post about hating Bob and my whole family? I cited a verse in the New Testament.
When the Bible speaks of God hating Esau, it is a figure of speech. My saying that I hate Bob and my family is said using the same figure. It means to love and to love more. I love Bob Enyart as much as I love any man alive, and of course I love my family, but I love Jesus more. That's what Jesus is teaching in Luke 14:26. When the Bible says, "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", it means that God loves Esau but He loved Jacob more. It is a very common Hebrew idiomatic expression.

As I argued with Lighthouse, "without cause" is only included with anger. It is not included with the latter two instances, and I believe for a reason. I've looked at a lot of commentary on this passage and none of them seem to suggest that without cause should be extended to the latter two. Further, some even noted that it is debated whether or not "without cause" is included at all. Some of the newer translations do not include it.

I do not care what you believe, I only care about what you can demonstrate to be true. Arguing that commentaries don't "seem to suggest" that we shouldn't be nicer than God isn't anything more than demonstrating the depth to which this problem has infected the church. Practically the entire church has bought into this "judge not", "seeker friendly" unbiblical mumbo jumbo and as a result it has become increasing irrelevant in our culture.
This is the entire reason why Bob makes such a big point about the whole "nicer than God" thing. Pointing out the problem only serves to bolster Bob's position.

Truly. But those aren't my words and my judgments, those are God's words and God's judgments. Calling someone a moron or insulting someone's intelligence is not speaking the word of God or passing the judgment of God upon them.

If it is the truth then the offense of it is good. Jesus is called the rock of offense. I don't doubt for a moment that those who follow Bob's teachings do and have gone too far on occasion (I know that I have), but that doesn't mean that Bob's argument is unbiblical or wrong at all. We should speak the truth and if that truth is offensive then so be it. The exceedingly wicked should be mocked and scorned as harshly as humanly possible because it is not currently lawful to execute them as God would prefer. But I agree with you (and Bob would as well), that calling someone moron without cause is wrong and should be avoided.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

This entire passage is about overcoming evil with good.
Clete claims that I have perverted the message, because it isn't about being kind, and compassionate and living in harmony with one another, but "abhoring what is evil", or in other words, hating unbelievers.

That is a perverted twist on this passage. That is following Enyart over Jesus.

Being kind and being nice are not the same thing. It is impossible to be kinder than God, it is very, very easy to be nicer than God. Neither Bob nor I have any problem with being kind but we are not nice. As far as we are concerned "nice" is a four letter word. "Nice" is not in the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beanieboy]

Being kind and being nice are not the same thing. It is impossible to be kinder than God, it is very, very easy to be nicer than God. Neither Bob nor I have any problem with being kind but we are not nice. As far as we are concerned "nice" is a four letter word. "Nice" is not in the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

nice:
# Pleasing and agreeable in nature: had a nice time.
# Having a pleasant or attractive appearance: a nice dress; a nice face.
# Exhibiting courtesy and politeness: a nice gesture.
# Of good character and reputation; respectable.
# Overdelicate or fastidious; fussy.
# Showing or requiring great precision or sensitive discernment; subtle: a nice distinction; a nice sense of style.
# Done with delicacy and skill: a nice bit of craft.
# Used as an intensive with and: nice and warm.

And you are saying that you are using a new definition?

 

[Clete]

Short on love, short on Jesus, loooong on the law. I see that a lot in theonomic thinking.

You're an idiot, granite! (Sorry, Johnny) How about getting at least a little bit of a clue as to what you are talking about before you start throwing your totally unsubstantive spam around in every single thread I post on.

Bob's church is affiliated (loosely) with the Grace Gospel Fellowship. Probably the least legalistic set of believers on the planet! What the civil laws and criminal code should be has nothing to do with being legalistic in the sense that most would use that word. The law is good if used lawfully, Paul says. The law, if used properly, aids in evangelism; in fact, that is its purpose (among other things).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Johnny]

Exactly, so either God is contradicting Himself or else love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

So putting aside for the moment the issue of God loving and hating simultaneously, how do you, as a human, plan to implement that principle?

The most loving thing you could do is to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is not saved and treat him accordingly. Otherwise, you my walk him very nicely striaght into Hell forever.

That's not hating him though. You're supposed to be giving me examples of hating someone while loving them.

Your removing them from your fellowship is by far the most loving thing that you could possibly do, especially if you have a close relationship with them that they value. The worse the offense, the more it should cost them to commit it.

Again, where does hate come in? Punishment is not hatred.

God became man and died for sinners. You're telling me the most loving thing you can do for a sinner is hate them and call them names?

It seems that you justify your hatred by claiming that it's love because the loving thing to do is lead someone toward salvation and that's what hatred does. Is that correct? Then you must assume that hating the unsaved is a more powerful testimony for Christ than loving them?

 

[beanieboy]

You're an idiot granite! (Sorry Johnny) How about getting at least a little bit of a clue as to what you are talking about before you start throwing your totally unsubstantive spam around in every single thread I post on.

Bob's church is affiliated (losely) with the Grace Gospel Fellowship. Probably the least legalistic set of believers on the planet! What the civil laws and criminal code should be has nothing to do with being legalistic in the sense that most would use that word. The law is good if used lawfully, Paul says. The law, if used properly, aids in evangelism; in fact, that is its purpose (among other things).

Resting in Him,
Clete

I believe he was referring to OT laws, not civil and criminal code.
:doh:
And that is why he is focussed on the execution of humans rather than the saving of souls.

 

[Clete]

nice:
# Pleasing and agreeable in nature: had a nice time.
# Having a pleasant or attractive appearance: a nice dress; a nice face.
# Exhibiting courtesy and politeness: a nice gesture.
# Of good character and reputation; respectable.
# Overdelicate or fastidious; fussy.
# Showing or requiring great precision or sensitive discernment; subtle: a nice distinction; a nice sense of style.
# Done with delicacy and skill: a nice bit of craft.
# Used as an intensive with and: nice and warm.

And you are saying that you are using a new definition?

bean,

My point was clear enough. If you want to actually respond to it fine and we'll continue. If you don't get it then you're too much a waste of time. But if you want to have an intelligent conversation, you will have to put some effort into staying on the same page as the rest of us and stop playing games.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I believe he was referring to OT laws, not civil and criminal code.
:doh:
And that is why he is focussed on the execution of humans rather than the saving of souls.

The execution of criminals does save souls, that's the whole point.

 

[beanieboy]

Jesus often used earthly fathers to demonstrate the love of God - if a child asks his father for bread, he will not give him a stone, the prodigal son, etc.)

No where does Jesus say that a father will hate his son for disobedience. One will be angered by the disobedience itself, one may assign punishment as a result, but not sane earthly father will tell his son, "I hate you!" to teach him a lesson.

Hate:


1. To feel hostility or animosity toward.
2. To detest.

You keep using false definitions, Clete, in order to keep in agreement with Enyart.

 

[beanieboy]

The execution of criminals does save souls, that's the whole point.

How?
Killing someone who commits adultery gets them to heaven how?