First, go read 2 Corinthians 12 again.
It was not Paul who was "caught up."
"I know a man in Christ who..."
"... how he was caught up into Paradise..."
I think it was, but it doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion. The information being conveyed is still the same whether Paul or someone else.
Second, I have already mentioned in post #942 that it could have been moved after Christ's resurrection.
Yes, but the Hades location must have been called "Paradise" from some time early in earth's history, right? Like as soon as Abel died, maybe? And if Abel was the only one there, for a long time, that must have been weird. In fact, the Garden of Eden, also called "Paradise of Eden" in the Septuagint, was still on earth when Abel and Adam died, still with the Tree of Life in it, probably. So it wasn't "the Paradise" Jesus claimed it to be.
I just read Revelation 2, where this passage (verse 7) is located, and I don't see anywhere where it says where Paradise itself is located. Verse 7 only says where the Tree of Life is located, not Paradise itself. And again, Paradise could have been moved after Christ's resurrection.
Agreed. But if "the paradise (garden) of God", where would that be? If the tree of Life is in it, and the tree of life is symbolically Jesus Christ, then it's wherever Jesus is, which fits well with his words to the thief, but fits just as well with my version of His words to the thief.
The later reference to the Tree of Life is
[Rev 22:1 KJV] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[Rev 22:2 KJV] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
With a river of water of life proceeding out of the throne of God and the Lamb, it hearkens back to the four rivers the flow out of Eden to water the whole earth, so it sounds like a garden, despite being in a city (in the midst of the street of it). I don't see much reason to think Rev 2 is talking about a different location than Rev 22, especially since Rev 2 is future-looking for those it's talking to.
And Jesus seemed to be future-looking when talking to the thief, too.
See post #944, where I give scripture to back up my claim.
Are you talking about this:
The "lower parts of the earth" usually refers to the place of the dead, in scripture, no? The grave, the pit, Sheol. Hell is just the part "the grave" where the unrighteous are held until the day of Judgement.
Even the ones speaking in Psalm 49 don't seem to think that there are different places for the righteous vs unrighteous dead:
Hear this, all peoples;Give ear, all inhabitants of the world, Both low and high,Rich and poor together. My mouth shall speak wisdom,And the meditation of my heart shall give understanding. I will incline my ear to a proverb;I will disclose my dark saying on the harp. Why should I fear in the days of evil,When the iniquity at my heels surrounds me? Those who trust in their wealthAnd boast in the multitude of their riches, None of them can by any means redeem his brother,Nor give to God a ransom for him— For the redemption of their souls is costly,And it shall cease forever— That he should continue to live eternally,And not see the Pit. For he sees wise men die;Likewise the fool and the senseless person perish,And leave their wealth to others. Their inner thought is that their houses will last forever,Their dwelling places to all generations;They call their lands after their own names. Nevertheless man, though in honor, does not remain;He is like the beasts that perish. This is the way of those who are foolish,And of their posterity who approve their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are laid in the grave;Death shall feed on them;The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning;And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave,For He shall receive me. Selah Do not be afraid when one becomes rich,When the glory of his house is increased; For when he dies he shall carry nothing away;His glory shall not descend after him. Though while he lives he blesses himself(For men will praise you when you do well for yourself), He shall go to the generation of his fathers;They shall never see light. A man who is in honor, yet does not understand,Is like the beasts that perish.
I agree that "lower parts of the earth" refers to the place of the dead. I agree that "the grave", "the pit", and "sheol" are synonymous with each other. I don't see anything to say that there are separate compartments of "hell" (KJV for sheol, and thus synonymous with those others). And if not, then it makes more sense that those are merely referring the state of being dead/buried, since the grave is the place of the dead.
I agree that Ps 49 applies equally to all (maybe
@Idolater should read it), except when it gets to the part about "God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave." That seems to be more pertinent to David and those that are righteous in God's eyes than just everyone. But if there's a judgment, and the judgment hasn't occurred yet, how can some be enjoying the good afterlife while some are in torment?
But what exactly is "the power of the grave"? If our souls are not in the grave, and they can be released without bothering with whatever is still in the grave, it doesn't seem like the grave has any power over our souls. It only makes sense if the grave is the place where the body is, and being redeemed from that place is...wait for it...RESURRECTION.
See also the passage of scripture where Samuel is called up from beneath the earth by the witch. Unless you're arguing that Samuel was also not one of the righteous dead...
Just dead. If he hasn't been judged yet, how does anyone know whether he's righteous or not?
Besides that, I don't see how that passage helps you (or me, for that matter). We aren't told what kind of form Saul is (whether he comes in a body or in some kind of spiritual essence). I've been through that several times with way2go.
Christ said "you'll be with me in paradise."
Paul said "Christ first descended, then ascended."
If Christ did not go to Paradise first, then to Heaven, but instead went straight to Heaven, then why did Paul say He first descended? Where did He descend to? If He did not descend, then why did Paul say He did?
He descended into the earth. Into a grave. There He was, in a grave for 3 days. Then He ascended out of the grave and up into heaven.
[Eph 4:9 KJV] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[Psa 63:9 KJV] But those [that] seek my soul, to destroy [it], shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
[Psa 63:10 KJV] They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.
Refer back to Ps 49, above.
[Psa 139:15 KJV] My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
If David being in his mother's womb is being wrought "in the lowest parts of the earth", and if you don't believe there's a soul factory in hell to supply newborns with souls, then you have to see "lower parts of the earth" as a grave or a tomb.
And before you say "it just means He came down to Earth from Heaven"...
The "lower parts of the earth" consistently refers to either: (literally) the grave, the Pit, Sheol, and (figuratively) the womb.
It NEVER means the plane of existence we live in, the surface of the earth.
I agree. But a body rotting in a grave is also not the plane of existence we live in/surface of the earth. But it doesn't have to be very far down, seems to me:
[Num 16:31 NKJV] Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them,
[Num 16:32 NKJV] and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all [their] goods.
[Num 16:33 NKJV] So they and all those with them went down alive
into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.
(the pit there is "Sheol")
That's what I'M asking!
Why not just say "Heaven" if it's Heaven.
Why say "Paradise" and confuse hundreds of millions of people, if it's not a different place than Heaven?
Or why not just say "Heaven is Paradise" somewhere, in some way?
But that's not what Scripture says!
Because "heavens" refers to several planes: air, space, and God's dwelling. "Heavens" is not paradise, but paradise might be part of heaven.
Because they weren't able or allowed to.
They wouldn't want to go to heaven because they weren't able/allowed to? Maybe you misunderstood my response. If Paradise is so good, and they were already there in Paradise, why would they want to go to heaven? Wouldn't they be just fine like they were?
Go read Numbers 35, the part about Cities of Refuge. The people who go to those cities (in Numbers 35) are NOT permitted to leave until the death of the high priest of that day. Abraham's Bosom was a refuge for the righteous dead, a temporary place for them to live while they await the death of the High Priest, which is Christ, because their sins had not yet been paid for!
The same kind of symbology works if death is merely "sleep". They are still "held captive" in death, but with a chance of being free, as opposed to those who won't be set free (to live eternally) but will merely be set free to be sent to the lake of fire. That's the larger problem of symbolic use of such things...it's easy to fit it to different interpretations.