way 2 go
Well-known member
what the bible means by spirit it's the eternal, continual part of usEcclesiastes 12:7 KJV — Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
and what you have there is the spirit of man still existing
begin analogy : don't pay a car loan , car gets repossessed , car doesn't cease to exist . end of analogy
(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
says the body turns to dust but you can only determine that the spirit still existsThis describes death prior to Christ's resurrection. It is in keeping with Gen 3, where God described death as returning to the dust. It is NOT in keeping with the view that the spirit goes to some other place for awhile.
supraSo if the "spirit" is the person without a body, it doesn't work. But if the spirit is some sort of life force, or breath, from God, both Gen 3 and Ecc 12 make sense.
We can dismiss with the Sadduccees, as I believe in spirits, and I believe in the resurrection.
so?There is plenty of disagreement in the church about what "made in the image of God" means.
you are saying we are created with a mortal spirit which is not in the image of God
immortal soul =continual
5590 psuche psoo-khay' from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart
you said : I believe the spirit continues to exist after resurrection.
so not continual existence
Correct.
what's the other option , Jesus lied ?Jesus taught continual existence
(Luke 16:22-23 [MKJV]) [22] And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried. [23] And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Perhaps that's what He meant. But I've offered another option for that passage.
no , she was expecting the demonic and saw the opposite and her eyes were opened to the truth of the situation which you ignoretying to twist who it was ?
No. Remember that in your favorite passage, above, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham. Why doesn't Samuel need them to carry him back to earth? So the angels could be the elohim from the Samuel story, being brought up from the grave. Then Samuel could be seen by the witch in Ramah. Then Saul sees him when he gets closer.
(I Samuel 28:11-14) [11] Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have thou deceived me? For thou are Saul. [13] And the king said to her, Be not afraid, for what do thou see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth. [14] And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a robe. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
still Facts:Supra
the bible says it was Samuel
she could see Samuel before Saul could
Saul could only see & hear Samuel when he surfaced.
Saul saw that it was Samuel
cognitive dissonance ?Saul answered Samuel's question that was directed at Saul.
what Samuel said about Saul's death came true
Agreed
you can't be with someone who doesn't existscontinual existence
(I Samuel 28:11-19)
(I Samuel 28:19) And, the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD also shall deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Yes. With Samuel: dead in the ground.
so they are \ were all together as spirits
like the spirits here:
(Revelation of John 6:9) And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of the Lamb that they held.
Jesus was talking to Sadducee's who didn't have life and still don't if they remained SadduceeGod is God of the living but you don't believe that
(Matthew 22:32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not God of the dead, but of the living
that doesn't work , everyone will be raised from the dead
Good point! But He's not the God of everyone. What's the difference? They believed in Christ, looking forward to His coming.
(John 10:10) The thief comes not, except that he might steal and kill and destroy. I came so that they might have life, and have it more abundantly.
noEveryone's spirit is living, according to you. And you're talking about spirits anyway, in that passage.
death happened on the day they ate from the tree ,spiritual death ,separation from God
you made this thread : is death just another life?
because you don't understand life and death from a biblical perspective
you want to apply a somewhat humanist perspective to the bible and try and make it fit , which it doesn't .
that is some scripture twisting right there(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
Right--he looked forward to Christ's coming, and to His death and resurrection, since he believed God could raise Isaac from the dead.
it says Abraham witnessed Jesus Christ coming to the earth which is only possible if Abraham exists at that moment in time , as a spirit
(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
there is no way to tell what Enoch and Elijah are now , the only thing we do know is they are not flesh and bloodThe rapture is a resurrection event. If you're correct the Elijah was already in a rapture state, then he was in his incorruptible, eternal body, and
1. He was not a spirit.
2. Jesus was not the first fruits
Are you willing to stand by that interpretation?
(I Corinthians 15:50 [MKJV]) And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Moses was spirit not resurrected
Peter and James saw and heard Moses and Elijah
(Matthew 17:3) And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.
Moses and Samuel were not described as surprised or disoriented by coming back from the dead which I would expect if they didn't exist priorSupra mortem
doesn't fit , temporary , you're murdering Moses againNo, God can't murder a man.
Not if Moses was only resurrected temporarily in some form of his old, corruptible body.
I'm not trying to blow off your point, as it's a good one. My argument is weak here.
they did what only spirits can doI dont see a problem with this passage. If God brought them to the mountain without the disciples seeing it, He can remove them. But it tells us nothing of their form.
(Matthew 17:7-8) [7] And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise and do not be terrified. [8] And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus alone.
It denies the biblical view of life and deathI'm trying to figure out why it's heretical
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