Is death just another life?

way 2 go

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Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV — Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
what the bible means by spirit it's the eternal, continual part of us
and what you have there is the spirit of man still existing
begin analogy : don't pay a car loan , car gets repossessed , car doesn't cease to exist . end of analogy

(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
This describes death prior to Christ's resurrection. It is in keeping with Gen 3, where God described death as returning to the dust. It is NOT in keeping with the view that the spirit goes to some other place for awhile.
says the body turns to dust but you can only determine that the spirit still exists
So if the "spirit" is the person without a body, it doesn't work. But if the spirit is some sort of life force, or breath, from God, both Gen 3 and Ecc 12 make sense.
supra
We can dismiss with the Sadduccees, as I believe in spirits, and I believe in the resurrection.

There is plenty of disagreement in the church about what "made in the image of God" means.
so?
you are saying we are created with a mortal spirit which is not in the image of God

immortal soul =continual

5590 psuche psoo-khay' from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart

you said : I believe the spirit continues to exist after resurrection.
so not continual existence

Correct.
:cautious:
Jesus taught continual existence
(Luke 16:22-23 [MKJV]) [22] And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried. [23] And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Perhaps that's what He meant. But I've offered another option for that passage.
what's the other option , Jesus lied ?
tying to twist who it was ?

No. Remember that in your favorite passage, above, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham. Why doesn't Samuel need them to carry him back to earth? So the angels could be the elohim from the Samuel story, being brought up from the grave. Then Samuel could be seen by the witch in Ramah. Then Saul sees him when he gets closer.
no , she was expecting the demonic and saw the opposite and her eyes were opened to the truth of the situation which you ignore

(I Samuel 28:11-14) [11] Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have thou deceived me? For thou are Saul. [13] And the king said to her, Be not afraid, for what do thou see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth. [14] And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a robe. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.


still Facts:
the bible says it was Samuel
she could see Samuel before Saul could
Saul could only see & hear Samuel when he surfaced.
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Saul answered Samuel's question that was directed at Saul.
what Samuel said about Saul's death came true


Agreed
cognitive dissonance ?
continual existence

(I Samuel 28:11-19)

(I Samuel 28:19) And, the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD also shall deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.


Yes. With Samuel: dead in the ground.
you can't be with someone who doesn't exists

so they are \ were all together as spirits

like the spirits here:
(Revelation of John 6:9) And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of the Lamb that they held.
God is God of the living but you don't believe that
(Matthew 22:32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not God of the dead, but of the living


that doesn't work , everyone will be raised from the dead

Good point! But He's not the God of everyone. What's the difference? They believed in Christ, looking forward to His coming.
Jesus was talking to Sadducee's who didn't have life and still don't if they remained Sadducee

(John 10:10) The thief comes not, except that he might steal and kill and destroy. I came so that they might have life, and have it more abundantly.

Everyone's spirit is living, according to you. And you're talking about spirits anyway, in that passage.
no
death happened on the day they ate from the tree ,spiritual death ,separation from God

you made this thread : is death just another life?
because you don't understand life and death from a biblical perspective
you want to apply a somewhat humanist perspective to the bible and try and make it fit , which it doesn't .
(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
Right--he looked forward to Christ's coming, and to His death and resurrection, since he believed God could raise Isaac from the dead.
that is some scripture twisting right there 👆
it says Abraham witnessed Jesus Christ coming to the earth which is only possible if Abraham exists at that moment in time , as a spirit
(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
The rapture is a resurrection event. If you're correct the Elijah was already in a rapture state, then he was in his incorruptible, eternal body, and
1. He was not a spirit.
2. Jesus was not the first fruits
Are you willing to stand by that interpretation?
there is no way to tell what Enoch and Elijah are now , the only thing we do know is they are not flesh and blood
(I Corinthians 15:50 [MKJV]) And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Moses was spirit not resurrected
Peter and James saw and heard Moses and Elijah
(Matthew 17:3) And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.
Supra mortem
Moses and Samuel were not described as surprised or disoriented by coming back from the dead which I would expect if they didn't exist prior
No, God can't murder a man.

Not if Moses was only resurrected temporarily in some form of his old, corruptible body.

I'm not trying to blow off your point, as it's a good one. My argument is weak here.
doesn't fit , temporary , you're murdering Moses again
I dont see a problem with this passage. If God brought them to the mountain without the disciples seeing it, He can remove them. But it tells us nothing of their form.
they did what only spirits can do
(Matthew 17:7-8) [7] And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise and do not be terrified. [8] And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus alone.
I'm trying to figure out why it's heretical
It denies the biblical view of life and death
 
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Clete

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I suggest that the angel called Jesus before His conception.

Luke 1:30-31 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. (1:31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Yes, yes but He was not officially named that until He was circumcised.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
 

JudgeRightly

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Depends on what you mean by "the spirit".

Just like any word in just about any language, the word "spirit" has a sphere of meaning, and what it means depends on the context, and sometimes it could have multiple meanings within the same context.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV — Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In this context, Solomon is using "spirit" in the same way he uses "dust," as a descriptor of what humans are made of.

Just as the dust man is made of will return to the earth, so too will the spirit return to God, either the life-force, in a figurative sense (for God is Life, and the source of all life), or the spirit, in a literal sense (for all men will stand before Him at some point, either in judgement, or being welcomed with open arms).

What Solomon does NOT say, that you have seemingly and erroneously inferred, is that after returning to God, that is the "spirit"'s final destination. In the sense that "spirit" means "life-force" imparted by God upon man, then yes, it is the final destination. But in the sense that "spirit" refers to the part of man that makes up who he is, then depending on whether a person is in a relationship with God, he is either at his final destination, or he is about to be cast into the lake of fire.

But Solomon isn't focusing on that.

This is one example of why Ecclesiastes is one of the hardest books in the Bible for a Christian to read and come out the other side of educated and edified, instead of confused and perplexed.

Solomon, in his wise, yet fallen state, isn't looking at the big picture. In this passage, he's focusing on specific portions of things, and while there is much wisdom to be gained from his written observations, if one does not have a firm grasp on the big picture, one can be lost by looking too closely at the details.

In this case, you've focused on one part of the process, while forgetting that there's more to it than just dust returning to the ground, and the spirit returning to God.

This describes death prior to Christ's resurrection.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

It is in keeping with Gen 3, where God described death as returning to the dust.

Indeed.... For the physical body, which is made of dust.

It is NOT in keeping with the view that the spirit goes to some other place for awhile.

Sure it is.

Just because the spirit takes a detour doesn't mean it doesn't ultimately return to God at some point, that point being judgement day.

So if the "spirit" is the person without a body, it doesn't work.

Sure it does.

But if the spirit is some sort of life force, or breath, from God, both Gen 3 and Ecc 12 make sense.

Supra.

No. Remember that in your favorite passage, above, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham. Why doesn't Samuel need them to carry him back to earth?

Why do you assume there were no angels?

The Bible doesn't say either way, and as far as I'm aware, doesn't indicate that there were none.

Good point! But He's not the God of everyone.

He IS God over all, though.

What's the difference? They believed in Christ, looking forward to His coming.

The point the Jesus made is that He is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Everyone's spirit is living, according to you.

In one sense, they are, but in another sense, they are not.

The problem you have is that you keep conflating the two senses.

In the sense that they exist and are conscious, they are "living."

In the sense that they have sinned and are fallen, and have not repented towards God, they are not "living," but dead.

A) Babies are alive, both physically and spiritually. They are living beings who are alive to God.

B) Babies who have died are dead physically, but alive to God.

C) A person who has sinned, but has not died, while he is unrepentant before God, is alive physically, but dead spiritually.

D) A person who has sinned, but has not died, but HAS asked God for forgiveness, is alive physically, and a new creature spiritually, having been raised with Christ by being baptised with the Holy Spirit.

E) A person who has sinned and died in his sin, is both dead physically, and dead spiritually. He will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged by God, in which case he will be permanently dead, both physically and spiritually, but also still existing and conscious. Such a state can't really be considered alive, since God is life, and they will have been separated from God, and therefore separated from life. They will also have been resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2), and they will experience the second death of Revelation 20:14.

F) A person who has sinned, and then died after being saved, is dead physically, but alive spiritually. He will spend eternity with God in heaven, and will never be separated from Him again (nor will he want to be). He is alive, literally (in that he is "living," he has life) and figuratively (in that "living" means he has a relationship with the One who is Life itself), but only resurrected spiritually (ie, with no new physical body yet). He will receive his glorified body upon the Second Coming of Christ, when He will raise and transform their bodies, at which point he will be both alive and resurrected, both spiritually and both physically.

And you're talking about spirits anyway, in that passage.

Yes, at that point, Abraham, et al, still had not been raised from the dead, yet were alive. (The first half of "F" above.)

Right--he looked forward to Christ's coming, and to His death and resurrection, since he believed God could raise Isaac from the dead.

Not quite.

This passage is saying that the day Christ was born, Abraham rejoiced, implying that Abraham still existed somewhere at the moment of Christ's birth. He saw Christ's birth, and was glad.

Not "he saw it as a future event," but rather, "he saw it as it was happening."

The rapture is a resurrection event.

Only for those saved in the Body of Christ, the "righteous."

If you're correct the[n] Elijah was already in a rapture state,

Wrong.

Elijah and Enoch are the only two men who have not seen death. However, Enoch's translation is a prefigurement of the rapture of the Church, while Elijah's is not.

The verses that describe Elijah being transported into God's presence do not match what Paul describes as the Rapture.

Elijah:
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

VS.

Paul's description of the Rapture of the Church:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Both men (Enoch and Elijah) are the exception to the rule, that being Hebrews 9:27.

It is possible that they are the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, so they may yet taste physical death, but the generation of the Body of Christ that is raptured will never experience physical death, as far as I can tell.

then he was in his incorruptible, eternal body,

But he wasn't. And if he's one of the two witnesses in Revelation, then that's even further evidence that he wasn't.

and
1. He was not a spirit.

See what I mean about words having a sphere of meaning?

Here, you use "spirit" to describe someone as being a non-corporeal entity.

Elijah was clearly non-corporeal.

But He still existed.

And according to other scriptures (not specifically about Elijah), he had not received his resurrected body, and that won't happen until either A) (If he's one of the two witnesses in Revelation) after the third day of lying dead in the streets, or B) at the return of Christ.

2. Jesus was not the first fruits
Are you willing to stand by that interpretation?

Jesus is definitely the first-fruits.

No, God can't murder a man.

God does not kill people unjustly, indeed.

Not if Moses was only resurrected temporarily in some form of his old, corruptible body.

Why does he have to have been resurrected in his old body?

Why can't he appear as a spirit in the image of his old body? A "spiritual representation," if you will... In other words, why can't the "look" of his spirit be what he looked like at some point in his physical life?

I don't see a problem with this passage. If God brought them to the mountain without the disciples seeing it, He can remove them. But it tells us nothing of their form.

It DOES tell us, however, that they still exist, between the point of their death, and the point of their resurrection.

I'm trying to figure out why it's heretical

As W2G said, because it's counter to what the Bible states.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yes, yes but He was not officially named that until He was circumcised.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
This depends on whose perspective you take.
 

Clete

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This depends on whose perspective you take.
I take the perspective of God's word.

Remember Bob's sentence within a sentence technique....

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

The angel told, even commanded, what was to happen, Luke records what did happen and when it happened. "When eight days where completed, His name was called Jesus." That what the word of God explicitly states

I agree its something of a minor detail and I get where you're coming from but we're talking to Derf here. He needs the exact details pointed out or else he'll take any and every opportunity he can find to make the scripture contort into something that suits his desire to believe weird doctrines that make no sense and have no practical purpose.

Clete
 

Derf

Well-known member
what the bible means by spirit it's the eternal, continual part of us
In that verse? Then it doesn't fit.
and what you have there is the spirit of man still existing
If it's a life force of some kind from God, then yes. But that doesn't mean it's a unique, personality-based entity in spirit form.
begin analogy : don't pay a car loan , car gets repossessed , car doesn't cease to exist . end of analogy
Poor analogy. What about when the car is in a wreck, and nothing will work anymore? It sits in a junk yard rusting, until it is turn apart for scraps of material or sent through a fire for recycling. Does the car cease to exist, yes. We're not talking about ownership, but about operation and existence when all of its components have been rusted through or burned up.
(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
Why did you quote this again?
says the body turns to dust but you can only determine that the spirit still exists
The "spirit" meaning what? Certainly not the one in Hades, since it has returned to God.
supra



so?
you are saying we are created with a mortal spirit which is not in the image of God
I'm saying immortality is not the "image of God" we were created with. The image of God refers to something else, but I admit I'm not sure what it is. Certainly Satan wasn't correct when he said, "You shall not surely die," after God said "You shall surely die."
immortal soul =continual
I thought only Jesus is immortal among humans at this point in time:
[1Ti 6:16 KJV] 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
5590 psuche psoo-khay' from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart
You forgot to include some other uses, like:
"the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: [used of] animals [in] Rev 8:9."

Where did that idea come from, that we have an immortal soul that even God can't or won't destroy? Wasn't it from Satan? "Thou shall not surely die." Just because Strongs repeats the idea doesn't mean it's biblical.

Plato said, "The soul of man is immortal and imperishable." Yet Jesus said it's possible to destroy the soul.

Why is that a problem? If our life ceases, then we are raised incorruptible, there's a continuity after resurrection, but why claim a continuity before resurrection? Why is it needed, except to maintain an ideology that sounds suspiciously like what Satan was saying.
what's the other option , Jesus lied ?

no , she was expecting the demonic and saw the opposite and her eyes were opened to the truth of the situation which you ignore
No, I agree with that.
(I Samuel 28:11-14) [11] Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have thou deceived me? For thou are Saul. [13] And the king said to her, Be not afraid, for what do thou see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth. [14] And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a robe. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.



still Facts:
the bible says it was Samuel
agreed
she could see Samuel before Saul could
agreed
Saul could only see & hear Samuel when he surfaced.
It wasn't when he surfaced...that's when the witch could see Samuel. Saul couldn't see him until later, but we don't know why it became possible.
Saul saw that it was Samuel
agreed
cognitive dissonance ?
Why? I don't disagree that it was Samuel, I'm just saying it was Samuel like Saul knew Samuel. He even recognized his clothing. How would Saul know what Samuel's spirit clothing would look like?
[1Sa 28:14 KJV] And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.

But an old man is not the only thing the witch saw come up. The previous verse said she saw "gods":
[1Sa 28:13 KJV] And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

So first she saw gods coming up out of the earth, then she saw an old man coming up ("ascending" and "cometh up" are the same Hebrew word.) And she apparently knew the difference between a man and "gods".
you can't be with someone who doesn't exists
Sure you can...in death.
so they are \ were all together as spirits
Or as dead people in the grave.
like the spirits here:
(Revelation of John 6:9) And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of the Lamb that they held.
You mean where the spirits are all stuffed under the altar, like they're being held prisoner, and told to rest a little longer? What an odd passage to say that they are alive and happy with Jesus. What I think is that it's an allusion to those who have died, and haven't been resurrected yet, but the promise is that when they are resurrected, they will enjoy the fruits of their faithfulness.
Jesus was talking to Sadducee's who didn't have life and still don't if they remained Sadducee
I don't disagree, but they will also be resurrected at some point, and face judgment.
(John 10:10) The thief comes not, except that he might steal and kill and destroy. I came so that they might have life, and have it more abundantly.


no
death happened on the day they ate from the tree ,spiritual death ,separation from God
The passage doesn't say "on the day", it says "in the day". God didn't say, "you will die spiritually", but "You will surely die." He didn't define death as "separation from Me", but "you are dust, and to dust you shall return." It seems like you have to change even the words of the passage so that you can maintain your understanding. I don't see a need to do that. (I think that's what Clete likes to call, the plain reading of scripture.)
you made this thread : is death just another life?
because you don't understand life and death from a biblical perspective
You mean from YOUR perspective.
you want to apply a somewhat humanist perspective to the bible and try and make it fit , which it doesn't .
Humanist? Socrates and Plato believed in the immortality of the soul, that people would reside in a place called Hades after this life was over.
that is some scripture twisting right there 👆
it says Abraham witnessed Jesus Christ coming to the earth which is only possible if Abraham exists at that moment in time , as a spirit
(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
Yes, he "saw", past tense. He "rejoiced", past tense. Hebrews gives a little more explanation:
[Heb 11:13 KJV] These all [including Abraham] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
there is no way to tell what Enoch and Elijah are now , the only thing we do know is they are not flesh and blood
(I Corinthians 15:50 [MKJV]) And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
But if they are spirits, then God must have murdered Elijah, according to how you see things.
Moses was spirit not resurrected
You don't know what form he was.
Peter and James saw and heard Moses and Elijah
And didn't distinguish them from each other in form or from Jesus in form. They looked real enough that Peter offered to build booths for them.
(Matthew 17:3) And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.

Moses and Samuel were not described as surprised or disoriented by coming back from the dead which I would expect if they didn't exist prior
As if you would know what it's like.
doesn't fit , temporary , you're murdering Moses again
You already murdered Elijah.
they did what only spirits can do
(Matthew 17:7-8) [7] And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise and do not be terrified. [8] And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus alone.
And Philip, too, must have been a spirit:
[Act 8:39 KJV] And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Now you've murdered Philip.
It denies the biblical view of life and death
And incorporates Greek theology.
 

JudgeRightly

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I'm saying immortality is not the "image of God" we were created with. The image of God refers to something else, but I admit I'm not sure what it is. Certainly Satan wasn't correct when he said, "You shall not surely die," after God said "You shall surely die."

I have already addressed this.

Satan was not making a general statement, "you will not ever die."

He was deceiving Eve by making her think that he was talking about eating and dying, when in fact, he was talking about touching and dying.

Where did that idea come from, that we have an immortal soul that even God can't or won't destroy?

It comes from the fact that Jesus Himself asked His Father if there was any other way to deal with sin, besides going to the cross and dying, Himself.


* Disproving Annihilation: To avoid the infinite suffering of the cross, if expunging human beings were an option, God could have annihilated every human being the moment they sinned. The Father's love for the Son is immeasurable. And as expected, that tells explains much. The deity of Christ and eternal punishment are related doctrines. Cults that reject that Jesus is God also tend to reject the eternality of hell. If the just punishment of sin is not an eternal punishing, then God wouldn't have had to sacrifice His eternal Son to pay for Man's sin. Rather, He could have created something of sufficient worth to pay the price. And thereby He could have avoided sacrificing His infinitely worthy Son. Christ's prayer in Gethsemane did not move the Father to provide an alternative resolution for the problem of sin. That means that there is no other conceivable resolution. Jesus prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." Therefore, we can be sure that there was no other way to pay for the sins of men. Expunging them was no option. Rather, because the demands of righteousness required a full payment for sin, the penalty for sin could not be a finite prison term followed by mere annihilation. For if so, then Jesus Christ would not have had to pay with His life.



If God cannot expunge human beings, then they cannot be expunged, even temporarily.

Thus, cessation of existence is not possible for humans.

Wasn't it from Satan?

No.

Plato said, "The soul of man is immortal and imperishable."

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Yet Jesus said it's possible to destroy the soul.

Destroy. Not annihilate.

You mean where the spirits are all stuffed under the altar, like they're being held prisoner,

What a dishonest way of characterizing those under the altar...

No one has said anything of the sort.

and told to rest a little longer?

The fact that are under an altar in Heaven disproves the idea that they ceased to exist.

What an odd passage to say that they are alive and happy with Jesus.

Straw man. W2G never said anything of the sort.

Yes, he "saw", past tense. He "rejoiced", past tense.

"Rejoiced to see," aorist tense.
Same with "saw and rejoiced."

Reminder that there are different "past" tenses in Greek, unlike in English.

Also, yes, Jesus' birth was in fact, in the past, relative to His words in John 8:56, so this argument of yours proves nothing.

Hebrews gives a little more explanation:
[Heb 11:13 KJV] These all [including Abraham] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

None of this disproves the idea that Abraham was in existence and conscious to see Jesus' day.
 

Derf

Well-known member
JR, I already have another post of yours I haven't had time to get to, but as this one is shorter, I'll anser it first.
I have already addressed this.

Satan was not making a general statement, "you will not ever die."

He was deceiving Eve by making her think that he was talking about eating and dying, when in fact, he was talking about touching and dying.
Saying it doesn't make it so, as you like to say. But you have no evidence for that, and it makes his deceit not deceitful. Are you telling me that Satan was telling the truth, while God was lying? I wouldn't have even suggested you thought that.


It comes from the fact that Jesus Himself asked His Father if there was any other way to deal with sin, besides going to the cross and dying, Himself.
He dealt with sin by meeting the requirement...dying. Death was the struggle Jesus was having.

* Disproving Annihilation: To avoid the infinite suffering of the cross, if expunging human beings were an option, God could have annihilated every human being the moment they sinned. The Father's love for the Son is immeasurable. And as expected, that tells explains much. The deity of Christ and eternal punishment are related doctrines. Cults that reject that Jesus is God also tend to reject the eternality of hell. If the just punishment of sin is not an eternal punishing, then God wouldn't have had to sacrifice His eternal Son to pay for Man's sin. Rather, He could have created something of sufficient worth to pay the price. And thereby He could have avoided sacrificing His infinitely worthy Son. Christ's prayer in Gethsemane did not move the Father to provide an alternative resolution for the problem of sin. That means that there is no other conceivable resolution. Jesus prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." Therefore, we can be sure that there was no other way to pay for the sins of men. Expunging them was no option. Rather, because the demands of righteousness required a full payment for sin, the penalty for sin could not be a finite prison term followed by mere annihilation. For if so, then Jesus Christ would not have had to pay with His life.


I'm not pushing for annihilation after judgment. But I also don't believe eternal life in the lake of fire was what God meant when He said "You will surely die." That's "second death." Jesus wasn't going to experience the second death, just the first.

If God cannot expunge human beings, then they cannot be expunged, even temporarily.
If eternality of the person is the image of God, then Satan is also in the image of God. Do you think that's the case?
Thus, cessation of existence is not possible for humans.
After the resurrection, yes, I agree with you. Before? It is, unless someone raises humans from the dead.
No.



Even a broken clock is right twice a day.



Destroy. Not annihilate.
They can be synonymous.
What a dishonest way of characterizing those under the altar...
I disagree. Death and the grave are represented as prison, and Christ took the prisoners with Him, in your view, "He took captivity captive." That seems to suggest to me that they are not being kept in a confined space and limited activity anymore. But those under the altar are just like that. They aren't enjoying all the loveliness and benefits of heaven, and they aren't allowed to join their fellow brethren, but are told to stay put, with a new article of clothing. Can't you see that in either view, that picture has to be taken symbolically? And as such, it isn't any more helpful to your view than it is to mine.

No one has said anything of the sort.



The fact that are under an altar in Heaven disproves the idea that they ceased to exist.
I've already said I struggle with that terminology. But if a car, going back to @way 2 go's illustration, stops working, and all the parts are melted down to use in other cars, what's left? Obviously we are not cars, but thinking, animate beings. Death causes us not to be animate anymore, nor to think anymore. (There's a reference in Psalms for that but I can't go look for it right now. Editted:
Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.)

Because God has promised to restore us, body, soul, and spirit, there's no doubt some way He can do that. My first thought is a large backup hard drive with all our DNA and memory on it. These would still be in an inactive state, since there's no body to use them in.

But your view at least had a problem with spirits in heaven that are not normally active, but wake up, make a plea for vengeance, and are told to go back to sleep. If that's the picture you want to use for how people exist in heaven, it sounds closer to soul sleep than what I am proposing.
"Rejoiced to see," aorist tense.
Same with "saw and rejoiced."

Reminder that there are different "past" tenses in Greek, unlike in English.
So you think Abraham saw Jesus born, but wasn't currently seeing what Jesus was doing?
Also, yes, Jesus' birth was in fact, in the past, relative to His words in John 8:56, so this argument of yours proves nothing.



None of this disproves the idea that Abraham was in existence and conscious to see Jesus' day.
Neither does it prove he was alive and kicking in Hades. Are you saying Hades residents can see into the physical world? Samuel was underground.
Editted:
Psalm 88:11-12 KJV — Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? (David's talking about "the pit" or Sheol.) How could Abraham see Jesus' day, if God's wonders aren't known there?


Remember these were Pharisees Jesus was speaking to in John 8:56. They didn't have any problem with the idea of resurrection and spirits. They understood that Jesus was refering to Abraham in his physical life. And Jesus did not answer them by explaining that Abraham was still alive in Hades, but that He (Jesus) was I AM, putting the eternality where it belongs.
Editted: (I went back and looked. The passage about Abraham seeing His day was spoken to "the Jews", while a previous teaching was spoken to Pharisees specifically. These were Jews that "believed on him", but their belief wasn't very strong, apparently.

I'll also admit that Jesus was indeed speaking of those who would never die if they continued believing, so it could mean what you said. I think it's meant to be similar to how Jesus spoke to Martha about Lazarus, which I'll try to bring up in a later post.)
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
In that verse? Then it doesn't fit.
sure it does
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV — Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If it's a life force of some kind from God, then yes. But that doesn't mean it's a unique, personality-based entity in spirit form.
life force is new age lie, how did you get impersonal from that verse , answer: you didn't get it from that verse
begin analogy : don't pay a car loan , car gets repossessed , car doesn't cease to exist . end of analogy
Poor analogy.
good analogy , it's a personal item you own and returning it to the original owner doesn't cause it to no longer exist , nothing else
my spirit is me
What about when the car is in a wreck, and nothing will work anymore? It sits in a junk yard rusting, until it is turn apart for scraps of material or sent through a fire for recycling. Does the car cease to exist, yes.
no , matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed , but we are not talking about the body we are talking about mine and your spirit returning to God
the non physical part of us
We're not talking about ownership, but about operation and existence when all of its components have been rusted through or burned up.
we are talking about our spirit returning to God and still existing which is all you can get from that verse
(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
Why did you quote this again?
(Luke 16:22-23) Jesus taught existence after death of the body , which you deny, lets see if you call Jesus a liar for his teaching
The "spirit" meaning what? Certainly not the one in Hades, since it has returned to God.
the spirit returned to God and God put the rich mans spirit in Hades and God directed the angels to take Lazarus to Abraham's side
I'm saying immortality is not the "image of God" we were created with. The image of God refers to something else, but I admit I'm not sure what it is.
God created us with an eternal spirit and God is an eternal spirit , we have an eternal spirit being created in God's image
you want to dumb us down to animals not created in the image of God
Certainly Satan wasn't correct when he said, "You shall not surely die," after God said "You shall surely die."
Adam & Eve did die that day they ate your the one who agrees with satan saying they didn't die that day
hence why you get everything else wrong
I thought only Jesus is immortal among humans at this point in time:
[1Ti 6:16 KJV] 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
that verse doesn't mean what you think it means


You forgot to include some other uses, like:
"the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: [used of] animals [in] Rev 8:9."

Where did that idea come from, that we have an immortal soul that even God can't or won't destroy? Wasn't it from Satan? "Thou shall not surely die." Just because Strongs repeats the idea doesn't mean it's biblical.

Plato said, "The soul of man is immortal and imperishable." Yet Jesus said it's possible to destroy the soul.
the bible teaches we have in an eternal spirit
God is eternal , angels are eternal


(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

(Revelation of John 6:9) And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held

(Revelation of John 20:10) And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet * were *. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Why is that a problem? If our life ceases, then we are raised incorruptible, there's a continuity after resurrection, but why claim a continuity before resurrection? Why is it needed, except to maintain an ideology that sounds suspiciously like what Satan was saying.
the problem is the bible doesn't teach we cease to exist ,
it's a lie satan use to deceive people into thinking there are no consequences for sin
lots of people believe we cease to exist after we die physically they are not Christians
but you have your share with atheist ,evolutionist , agnostics ,Sadduccee
No, I agree with that.

agreed

agreed
doubt it
It wasn't when he surfaced...that's when the witch could see Samuel. Saul couldn't see him until later, but we don't know why it became possible.
denial of the obvious

(I Samuel 28:11-14) [11] Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have thou deceived me? For thou are Saul. [13] And the king said to her, Be not afraid, for what do thou see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth. [14] And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a robe. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.

no we don't , so why do you pretend ?

it was Samuel's spirit that came up & you don't believe that .

Why? I don't disagree that it was Samuel, I'm just saying it was Samuel like Saul knew Samuel. He even recognized his clothing. How would Saul know what Samuel's spirit clothing would look like?
my speculation : Samuel spirit appearance was that of what he was wearing when he crossed over
like people claim with an out of body experience
[1Sa 28:14 KJV] And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.

But an old man is not the only thing the witch saw come up. The previous verse said she saw "gods":
[1Sa 28:13 KJV] And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
no , she saw Samuel and described his initial appearance as a god as opposed to a dark demon

(I Samuel 28:11-14) [11] Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have thou deceived me? For thou are Saul. [13] And the king said to her, Be not afraid, for what do thou see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth. [14] And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a robe. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
So first she saw gods coming up out of the earth, then she saw an old man coming up ("ascending" and "cometh up" are the same Hebrew word.) And she apparently knew the difference between a man and "gods".
no . Samuel
[12] And when the woman saw Samuel,
(what is the form of this god answer: Samuel)
you can't be with someone who doesn't exists

Sure you can...in death.
spirits exist in the place called death
(Revelation of John 20:13-14) [13] And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Or as dead people in the grave.
no
You mean where the spirits are all stuffed under the altar, like they're being held prisoner, and told to rest a little longer? What an odd passage to say that they are alive and happy with Jesus. What I think is that it's an allusion to those who have died, and haven't been resurrected yet, but the promise is that when they are resurrected, they will enjoy the fruits of their faithfulness.
so you demean God , demean the martyrs then call God evil and a liar

🤔
think of an alter on top of a hill with the souls beneath and how could you be unhappy with God in heaven

(Psalms 84:10) For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Jesus was talking to Sadducee's who didn't have life and still don't if they remained Sadducee

I don't disagree, but they will also be resurrected at some point, and face judgment.
they are already judged and in Hades just awaiting judgement day.
(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
The passage doesn't say "on the day", it says "in the day". God didn't say, "you will die spiritually", but "You will surely die." He didn't define death as "separation from Me", but "you are dust, and to dust you shall return." It seems like you have to change even the words of the passage so that you can maintain your understanding. I don't see a need to do that. (I think that's what Clete likes to call, the plain reading of scripture.)
in the second death everyone still exists and are permanently with no chance for repentance , separated from God.
you don't understand what death is .

what triggered Adam & Eves death, answer, eating and how long did eating take answer , minutes
when did they feel the effect answer that day , when were their eyes opened, that day
when was the 1st time God looked for them, that day, when did they hide themselves, that day
when were they afraid of God, that day

but want me to believe they didn't die that day because on or in or is it in or on , don't care as it makes no difference

and if all you have is on or in or where a comma goes in "today you will be with me in paradise"
then you have nothing

death happened on the day they ate from the tree ,spiritual death ,separation from God , like the second death
You mean from YOUR perspective.
no . you would be the heterodox or heretic
Humanist? Socrates and Plato believed in the immortality of the soul, that people would reside in a place called Hades after this life was over.
your understanding of death is it's just physical , first death and second death have the same characteristic as in it's separation from God while still existing
Yes, he "saw", past tense. He "rejoiced", past tense. Hebrews gives a little more explanation:
[Heb 11:13 KJV] These all [including Abraham] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
so you're going with Jesus lied and Abraham didn't see Jesus
(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
But if they are spirits, then God must have murdered Elijah, according to how you see things.
no
Moses was spirit not resurrected
You don't know what form he was.
yes I do, already been over this , spirit , otherwise first resurrected
And didn't distinguish them from each other in form or from Jesus in form. They looked real enough that Peter offered to build booths for them.
so ?
Moses and Samuel were not described as surprised or disoriented by coming back from the dead which I would expect if they didn't exist prior As if you would know what it's like.
Peter was in shock Moses and Samuel were not

JR posted this on The Numinous
.https://youtu.be/LN8b5wkAEbg
You already murdered Elijah.
no
And Philip, too, must have been a spirit:
[Act 8:39 KJV] And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Now you've murdered Philip.
what are you talking about ?

(Acts 8:40) But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached the gospel in all the cities until he came to Caesarea.
 
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Derf

Well-known member
Just like any word in just about any language, the word "spirit" has a sphere of meaning, and what it means depends on the context, and sometimes it could have multiple meanings within the same context.



In this context, Solomon is using "spirit" in the same way he uses "dust," as a descriptor of what humans are made of.

Just as the dust man is made of will return to the earth, so too will the spirit return to God, either the life-force, in a figurative sense (for God is Life, and the source of all life), or the spirit, in a literal sense (for all men will stand before Him at some point, either in judgement, or being welcomed with open arms).

What Solomon does NOT say, that you have seemingly and erroneously inferred, is that after returning to God, that is the "spirit"'s final destination. In the sense that "spirit" means "life-force" imparted by God upon man, then yes, it is the final destination.
At least you admit "life-force" is a possibility.
But in the sense that "spirit" refers to the part of man that makes up who he is, then depending on whether a person is in a relationship with God, he is either at his final destination, or he is about to be cast into the lake of fire.

But Solomon isn't focusing on that.

This is one example of why Ecclesiastes is one of the hardest books in the Bible for a Christian to read and come out the other side of educated and edified, instead of confused and perplexed.

Solomon, in his wise, yet fallen state, isn't looking at the big picture. In this passage, he's focusing on specific portions of things, and while there is much wisdom to be gained from his written observations, if one does not have a firm grasp on the big picture, one can be lost by looking too closely at the details.

In this case, you've focused on one part of the process, while forgetting that there's more to it than just dust returning to the ground, and the spirit returning to God.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Indeed.... For the physical body, which is made of dust.
For the person, who is made of 2 things:
dust and breath of life, according to Genesis.
Sure it is.

Just because the spirit takes a detour doesn't mean it doesn't ultimately return to God at some point, that point being judgement day.
Perhaps. But the context seems to be immediate, or very close to it.
Sure it does.



Supra.



Why do you assume there were no angels?

The Bible doesn't say either way, and as far as I'm aware, doesn't indicate that there were none.
I don't. Rather, the scripture seems to indicate there WERE angels (plural), called "elohim" by the witch. @way 2 go was the one who said no angels.
He IS God over all, though.



The point the Jesus made is that He is the God of the living, not of the dead.



In one sense, they are, but in another sense, they are not.

The problem you have is that you keep conflating the two senses.

In the sense that they exist and are conscious, they are "living."

In the sense that they have sinned and are fallen, and have not repented towards God, they are not "living," but dead.

A) Babies are alive, both physically and spiritually. They are living beings who are alive to God.

B) Babies who have died are dead physically, but alive to God.

C) A person who has sinned, but has not died, while he is unrepentant before God, is alive physically, but dead spiritually.

D) A person who has sinned, but has not died, but HAS asked God for forgiveness, is alive physically, and a new creature spiritually, having been raised with Christ by being baptised with the Holy Spirit.

E) A person who has sinned and died in his sin, is both dead physically, and dead spiritually. He will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged by God, in which case he will be permanently dead, both physically and spiritually, but also still existing and conscious. Such a state can't really be considered alive, since God is life, and they will have been separated from God, and therefore separated from life. They will also have been resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2), and they will experience the second death of Revelation 20:14.

F) A person who has sinned, and then died after being saved, is dead physically, but alive spiritually. He will spend eternity with God in heaven, and will never be separated from Him again (nor will he want to be). He is alive, literally (in that he is "living," he has life) and figuratively (in that "living" means he has a relationship with the One who is Life itself), but only resurrected spiritually (ie, with no new physical body yet). He will receive his glorified body upon the Second Coming of Christ, when He will raise and transform their bodies, at which point he will be both alive and resurrected, both spiritually and both physically.



Yes, at that point, Abraham, et al, still had not been raised from the dead, yet were alive. (The first half of "F" above.)



Not quite.

This passage is saying that the day Christ was born, Abraham rejoiced, implying that Abraham still existed somewhere at the moment of Christ's birth. He saw Christ's birth, and was glad.
No, it says that Abraham saw Christ's day. You have to insert the "was born" part, and then you have to make the scripture "imply" something. Implications is where we have to start speculating. My speculation is just as valid as yours at that point.
Not "he saw it as a future event," but rather, "he saw it as it was happening."
Not according to Hebrews, which says he say it afar off. That's not "distance" but "time", imo.
Only for those saved in the Body of Christ, the "righteous."



Wrong.

Elijah and Enoch are the only two men who have not seen death. However, Enoch's translation is a prefigurement of the rapture of the Church, while Elijah's is not.

The verses that describe Elijah being transported into God's presence do not match what Paul describes as the Rapture.

Elijah:
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
I don't see how Enoch's translation is any more so.
VS.

Paul's description of the Rapture of the Church:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
In other words, immortality doesn't start until the rapture. So why do you say it starts earlier?
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Same thing. Paul doesn't say, "Comfort one another by saying our loved ones are already with Jesus in heaven," but "Comfort one another by saying that our loved ones will be with Jesus forever after the resurrection."
Both men (Enoch and Elijah) are the exception to the rule, that being Hebrews 9:27.
I agree. @way 2 go's point was that Elijah and Moses were both in spirit form on the Mt of Transfiguration. So if Moses was a spirit because he died, then why was Elijah a spirit, since he never died.
It is possible that they are the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, so they may yet taste physical death, but the generation of the Body of Christ that is raptured will never experience physical death, as far as I can tell.
I agree. Although I don't know what it will be like to be immediately changed from mortal to immortal. Is it like death???
But he wasn't. And if he's one of the two witnesses in Revelation, then that's even further evidence that he wasn't.
I agree, therefore @way 2 go needs to explain how Elijah got to be a spirit.
See what I mean about words having a sphere of meaning?

Here, you use "spirit" to describe someone as being a non-corporeal entity.

Elijah was clearly non-corporeal.
Clearly? Why do you say that? There's no indication that Moses and Elijah were any less corporeal than Jesus was at the time.
But He still existed.
Yes, as a dead, but not yet decayed, inanimate body. Scripture doesn't clearly say anything else, except that He was in the tomb during that time.
And according to other scriptures (not specifically about Elijah), he had not received his resurrected body, and that won't happen until either A) (If he's one of the two witnesses in Revelation) after the third day of lying dead in the streets, or B) at the return of Christ.
True. But if Samuel can be called up from the grave and presented to Saul in some form that he recognized, which wasn't ever called a "spirit", so could Moses, who also wasn't ever called a spirit. A temporary reconstruction of his body, perhaps?
Jesus is definitely the first-fruits.
Agreed.
God does not kill people unjustly, indeed.
Agreed.
Why does he have to have been resurrected in his old body?

Why can't he appear as a spirit in the image of his old body? A "spiritual representation," if you will... In other words, why can't the "look" of his spirit be what he looked like at some point in his physical life?
I'm not discounting the possibility. But that assumes the spirit is a shadowy representation of the flesh. This is Greek mythology kind of stuff. Where in scripture is that discussed clearly? It isn't. And as we have learned from discussions about Open Theism, we don't like it when Greek ideas trump scripture.
It DOES tell us, however, that they still exist, between the point of their death, and the point of their resurrection.
Or the idea of them exists. They haven't been forgotten by God.
As W2G said, because it's counter to what the Bible states.
Only if you already accept the idea of the immortal soul, which is possibly contrary to what God created. That's why I call it a preconception, or presupposition. Those things regularly get us in trouble.


I've probably neglected some important stuff, so if you see something you think I should address more specifically, let me know.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Isn't it because of Isaiah 52-53, the Suffering Servant? It's not just His body which suffered for our sins, but His soul, His self, His whole being.
I agree He suffered in body, soul, and spirit. But you seem to be saying it wasn't finished on the cross. Do I understand you correctly?

And if the suffering was finished on the cross, then my position here is not at odds with Jesus' statement...all the suffering was done while Jesus was alive, none while He was dead.
Something we definitely agree on!

Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
That verse says nothing about Jesus suffering in hell. Are you sure you are in agreement with Idolator there?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
That verse says nothing about Jesus suffering in hell. Are you sure you are in agreement with Idolator there?
Jesus flatly DID NOT suffer in Hell. That's blasphemy to even suggest it. There is no scripture to support such a lie and its a good thing too because, if there were, it would falsify the whole religion of Christianity (and Judaism to boot)!

What I agree with is what I quoted....

"It's not just His body which suffered for our sins, but His soul, His self, His whole being."

That sentence is in perfect keeping with Jesus "being in agony" as stated in Luke 22:44. I have not been reading your exchange and so likely missed important context. If Idolator meant it to mean that Jesus was tortured in Hell fire then he's just believing in fairy tales. There's no more evidence that such a thing is true than there is evidence that Santa Clause exists or that Joseph Smith was a "later day" prophet.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Jesus flatly DID NOT suffer in Hell. That's blasphemy to even suggest it. There is no scripture to support such a lie and its a good thing too because, if there were, it would falsify the whole religion of Christianity (and Judaism to boot)!

What I agree with is what I quoted....

"It's not just His body which suffered for our sins, but His soul, His self, His whole being."

That sentence is in perfect keeping with Jesus "being in agony" as stated in Luke 22:44. I have not been reading your exchange and so likely missed important context. If Idolator meant it to mean that Jesus was tortured in Hell fire then he's just believing in fairy tales. There's no more evidence that such a thing is true than there is evidence that Santa Clause exists or that Joseph Smith was a "later day" prophet.
Thanks for the clarification.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I agree He suffered in body, soul, and spirit. But you seem to be saying it wasn't finished on the cross. Do I understand you correctly?

And if the suffering was finished on the cross, then my position here is not at odds with Jesus' statement...all the suffering was done while Jesus was alive, none while He was dead.
You are the one who wanted to use Psalm 16:10 to advance your case, and then we covered that Psalm 16:10 (Acts 2:27) does not apply to David nor to anybody except Christ. Then you asked why Christ's destiny or disposition upon death might be different from David's, and I answered you. What else are you looking for here? Do you disagree with my answer?

That verse says nothing about Jesus suffering in hell. Are you sure you are in agreement with Idolator [sic] there?
lol Clete.
 

Derf

Well-known member
You are the one who wanted to use Psalm 16:10 to advance your case, and then we covered that Psalm 16:10 (Acts 2:27) does not apply to David nor to anybody except Christ.
"Does not"...I agree. "Will not"...I disagree. So if it does not currently apply to David, then David's soul is still in "hell" (Hades), right? The common Christian story says that Christ took captivity (those in the good part of Hades) captive (He took them to heaven), but not in body, only in spirit. He did this sometime between His death and His ascension. Peter quoted
--Psalm 16:10 KJV — For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.--
saying it did not apply to David BECAUSE David was still dead, his body was still in the sepulchre, not because his soul never went to hell (Hades). That means that the phrase "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" is referring to resurrection, not some disembodied spirit going to heaven. The correlary is that anyone who has died and who has not been resurrected IS IN HELL (Hades) today. That implies that there is no spirit-existence for the Christian between death and resurrection.

Then you asked why Christ's destiny or disposition upon death might be different from David's, and I answered you. What else are you looking for here? Do you disagree with my answer?
Yes, because if Jesus suffered in hell for our sins, then His statement was false that "It is finished" with His death. And if all of His suffering was in the body, then He didn't suffer the final penalty for sin that we are all threatened with, sans Christ (second death): He only suffered the penalty we were first threatened with, death.

That doesn't prove Jesus didn't go somewhere different from David, but from the other scriptures He did not, and certainly not to hell absent of David.
lol Clete.
I get that.
 
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