ECT If MAD is False What Does Hebrews 6:4-6 Mean for Us?

[Right Divider]

Show me where Jesus preached that we have to have faith in his death on the cross?

THAT was the POINT marhig, He didn't.... but PAUL did.

 

[Right Divider]

John 4

So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. And many more believed because of his own word;*And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard*him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Jesus preached the gospel to the Samaritans, and they believed his word and they believed that he was indeed the Christ the saviour of the world.

Sorry I must go and clean up the house.

Where does Jesus call what He taught them, "the gospel"?

One thing interesting about the book of John is that he never uses the word "gospel" even once.

 

[steko]

as though there was something double about "everything promised to the fathers is fulfilled for you their children in the resurrection of Jesus."

Where does it say 'everything'?

And....it's obvious that 'everything' promised to the fathers has not been fulfilled.
Why do I say that?
Because...I can read.

 

[musterion]

Where does Jesus call what He taught them, "the gospel"?

One thing interesting about the book of John is that he never uses the word "gospel" even once.

See, that's the great thing about being an anti-literalist. NOT ONLY can you handily dismiss as figurative, allegorical, etc, any text that, taken literally, will not fit your preconceived doctrine...you can ALSO read what ISN'T there into any Text. Watch them very closely...everyone on TOL who is into allegorizing God's Word also eisegetes by the ton, without fail.

It's just "yea, hath God said...?" in a wordy new wrapper.

 

[Interplanner]

Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

This in Acts 13 is about that promise...

Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Who qualifies for this promise?

13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Paul's repeat of this resurrection promise...

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

That is what one first proves to a Jew...about Christ...to this...very...day.

And that is what one first proves to a Gentile as well.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Verse 2's "unless ye have believed in vain" - what meaneth that?

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Acts 13 is merely asserting the Resurrection and who gets to be a part of it.

You think you can wander all over the fields. No, HE explains it in the verses following. It includes the promises to David. They belong to Christ to, says the quote. That historic event (he is not referring here to a future event) shows the acceptance by heaven of his work on our behalf ('heaven must receive/accept him' Act 3), for our justification from sins. This in turn creates a proclamation that can be made--that they should be making. They are in Christ if they do, says the quote of the Is passage in the follow up.

YOU ALWAYS DEFY THE NT USE OF THE OT, this time 3 verses away. That's 2P2P sickness.

 

[musterion]

This in turn creates a proclamation that can be made--that they should be making.

Which is?

 

[Interplanner]

lol, you really can't follow a chapter can you?

13:38. Call me when you have memorized this one official unforced sermon by the apostle, so I can get over my headache.

What do you think 'the Jews' were supposed to proclaim in the Isaiah quotes during the follow up of the sermon?

 

[musterion]

lol, you really can't follow a chapter can you?

13:38. Call me when you have memorized this one official unforced sermon by the apostle, so I can get over my headache.

What do you think 'the Jews' were supposed to proclaim in the Isaiah quotes during the follow up of the sermon?

Answer the question. What exactly were they to proclaim?

 

[Lighthouse]

But when people refer to the 4 accounts as gospels, it is OK to do so because it is about that event. It is a literary form, for sure, but the fact that we don't call them individually 'the gospels' of Christ tells us that historically people have understood they have one coherent message.

The idea that there are two messages or offers there is modern 2P2P D'ism nonsense. And also a simple grammatical mistake.

The four gospel accounts are all about the same gospel, but the gospel message Jesus sent the 12 to preach as recorded in some of these said accounts is different than the message now known as "the gospel" by anyone who claims Christianity [aside from those who cross into heresy, at least, such as JW's and Mormons]. It also differs from the gospel message preached by the 12 in Acts, because they allowed to tell of His death and resurrection after the fact, but not before. Not that they understood it before the fact.

Thanks, I'd misplaced mine.

You're welcome.

I tried, anyway. When I realized he/she refused to even entertain the possibility of distinctions, I realized I'd been wasting my time and now have him/her on Ignore.

Probably for the best. The obstinately blind are unable to learn because they are unwilling.

 

[marhig]

The Samaritans understood this in the context of all prophecy concerning the nation of Israel and that the nations would be blessed through Israel's promised Messiah.
That was the context.
The ascended Christ through the Apostle Paul introduces a different context, the eternal salvation of Jew and Gentile, on equal footing, through their trust in Christ's substitutionary work of the cross and His resurrection, whereby those who so trust are declared not guilty in the sight of GOD.


Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The content of what is required to believe for salvation/deliverance for the Samaritans is obviously different from what the Apostle Paul teaches by revelation from Christ from heaven.

Everyone is saved through faith by the grace of God. And starts by believing in the gospel. I don't disregard the words of Jesus saying that they are for others and that only Paul's teachings are for me. That is putting Paul before Jesus!

 

[marhig]

Certainly.

Judas is still irrelevant, because he was never saved, having died before salvation was even possible.

So what about everyone else that was born before Jesus? Are they all unsaved too?

Now, where are the verses that say we can fall away?


You can't seriously be this stupid. I didn't say that it said it is impossible to lose salvation; I said that it says it is impossible to be saved again once you have lost it.:dunce:duh:

Ah well at least you don't believe in OSAS and predestination that's good! And yes I am a dunce, without God I'm nothing!

And this is where it all falls apart. You deny Jesus Christ is who He said He is.

No I don't, I totally believe him, he said he was the son of God, and I believe his words

Paul preached it. And @musterion gave you an example with 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

And where does it say there that Jesus died on the natural cross to save us? It doesn't!

And yes, Jesus nor any of the other apostles taught that he died on the cross to save us either, they all taught that faith saves, including Paul. Not faith in the cross, but faith in God and Jesus. And if we have faith then we'll truly follow him and do the works!

I haven't seen anywhere in the Bible that I must have faith in the death of Jesus on the cross. Only that I'm saved through faith by the grace of God. And that I'm saved by the life of Jesus, which is the resurrection of Christ within. Without the life of Christ within by the spirit. We're dead in our sins, whatever we believe. And you'll know who has the spirit as they will be living it out and overcoming as Jesus did himself, and he will give us the strength to overcome to when we have faith and follow him!

It seems strange that all the apostles and Jesus left out such an important belief for salvation? Surely if Jesus died on the cross to save us, wouldn't he have preached that? Or sent his apostles to do so? They would all have been preaching it over and over.

But instead they all preached that we are saved through faith. And without the grace of God we have no hope!

Oh and you asked haven't I already overcome?

No not entirely, my old life is gone, and my new life in God has begun, and I have overcome many things through Christ. But, I still have to overcome every day. And I'm tried and tested always. And i believe that I can still fall if I go and lust after the flesh again. I'm being saved by Gods grace.

If we have already overcome completely, then Paul wouldn't have needed to die daily. And we wouldn't have to partake in the sufferings Christ. Christ through the spirit, is helping me to overcome day by day!

 

[marhig]

THAT was the POINT marhig, He didn't.... but PAUL did.

No he didn't, and Jesus's teachings are first and foremost to me. I don't just disregard them and only believe what Paul taught. That's just madness!

By the way, if you go back to the post which I was quoting, I was told that Jesus preached that we must have faith in his death on the cross. No he didn't!

 

[marhig]

Where does Jesus call what He taught them, "the gospel"?

One thing interesting about the book of John is that he never uses the word "gospel" even once.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jesus made it quite clear here that he was anointed to preach the gospel and that Isaiah was speaking of him.

 

[Right Divider]

No he didn't, and Jesus's teachings are first and foremost to me.

Yes, we know. Everything is about you.

I don't just disregard them and only believe what Paul taught. That's just madness!

That is also confusion on your part. I believe everything that Jesus taught, even the stuff that He said wasn't for me.

By the way, if you go back to the post which I was quoting, I was told that Jesus preached that we must have faith in his death on the cross. No he didn't!

Not sure what you're talking about here.

 

[Right Divider]

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jesus made it quite clear here that he was anointed to preach the gospel and that Isaiah was speaking of him.

Yes, that's all correct.

Aren't you curious why John never uses the word "gospel" even ONCE?

P.S. What was the gospel that Jesus was to preach to the poor?

 

[marhig]

Yes, we know. Everything is about you.

I meant I take the teachings of Jesus to myself, I don't say that's for others and not for me.

That is also confusion on your part. I believe everything that Jesus taught, even the stuff that He said wasn't for me.

I think that we see the gospel in a totally different way. From what I'm reading you totally disregard the teachings of Jesus and only listen Paul, Paul is a strong apostle of God, but he's not the Messiah, and I don't follow Paul i follow Jesus, as Paul also did himself. Jesus preached one gospel for all. If there is no difference between Jews and gentiles and we all one body in Christ, then that means we all believe in the same gospel.

Not sure what you're talking about here.

Well maybe you should read what I was replying to, before replying in a post to me when you don't know what I'm talking about.

I was told in a post that Jesus preached that we are to have faith in his death on the cross, before he went on the cross. And I answered no he didn't. To which you replied Jesus didn't but Paul did. We were talking about Jesus not Paul.

 

[marhig]

Yes, that's all correct.

Aren't you curious why John never uses the word "gospel" even ONCE?

P.S. What was the gospel that Jesus was to preach to the poor?

So, Jesus did call what he taught the gospel then?

And no not really, I'm not curious. I just believe in Jesus and trust that God has everything in the Bible that we need to know. I have complete faith in him. I don't know the inns and outs of the Greek as Hebrew etc. There's enough in the Bible teach me how to live before God. I know that we are to believe, have faith, obey God and turn from sin, as preached by Jesus and all his apostles.

God teaches us and gives us understanding through the spirit. I know the basics and if there's anything else that I need know, then God will show me through the spirit within my heart, or he'll let me know through others.

 

[Right Divider]

I meant I take the teachings of Jesus to myself, I don't say that's for others and not for me.

What about the stuff that Jesus says is specifically not for you? Do you follow Matthew 23?

Yes I can tell, we see the gospel in a totally different way. From what I'm reading you totally disregard the teachings of Jesus and only listen Paul,

Well you're WRONG. That lie is constantly repeated by many here that call themselves "Christians".

Paul is a strong apostle of God, but he's not the Messiah, and I don't follow Paul i follow Jesus, as Paul also did himself.

Please show us where ANYONE called Paul the Messiah.

Jesus preached one gospel for all. If there is no difference between Jews and gentiles and we all one body in Christ, then that means we all believe in the same gospel.

In the gospel of the kingdom, Israel has precedence and gentiles are welcome.
In the gospel of the grace of God, Israel has no precedence and all are welcome.

Well maybe you should read what I was replying to, before replying in a post to me when you don't know what I'm talking about.

I do.

I was told in a post that Jesus preached that we are to have faith in his death on the cross, before he went on the cross. And I answered no he didn't. To which you replied Jesus didn't but Paul did. We were talking about Jesus not Paul.

Told by WHO? I never said that.

Jesus did NOT preach the cross as GOOD NEWS (that's what gospel means) during His earthly ministry.

 

[marhig]

What about the stuff that Jesus says is specifically not for you? Do you follow Matthew 23?

Talk about being picky, as I'm not a scribe or pharasee, then no.

But people shouldn't just say that all his teachings are for the Jews of that time only, no they're not. They're for all of us, including all those who belong to Christ.

Well you're WRONG. That lie is constantly repeated by many here that call themselves "Christians".

Am I, I've seen on here over and over people who believe in MAD saying that the teachings of Jesus aren't for them and only the teachings of Paul are for them

Please show us where ANYONE called Paul the Messiah.

If you don't believe the teachings of Jesus, and only listen to the teachings of Paul, then Jesus isn't your Messiah, I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ and that his gospel is for me who was a gentile to believe in too and not just for the jews.

In the gospel of the kingdom, Israel has precedence and gentiles are welcome.
In the gospel of the grace of God, Israel has no precedence and all are welcome.

Jesus' gospel is the gospel of God. There is only one gospel and all apostles preached faith and grace. Not only Paul.

If jews and gentiles become one, then we have one gospel!

Told by WHO? I never said that.

Jesus did NOT preach the cross as GOOD NEWS (that's what gospel means) during His earthly ministry.

No I know he didn't, and I never said you did say it and that's what I was saying, and nor did his apostles. You came in when I was talking to someone else who did say that!

 

[Right Divider]

Talk about being picky, as I'm not a scribe or pharasee, then no.

Jesus was NOT speaking TO the scribes and Pharisees.

You're the one that's picky, claiming that you believe EVERYTHING that Jesus taught.

Do you FOLLOW the teaching of the scribes and Pharisees as JESUS COMMANDED?

But people shouldn't just say that all his teachings are for the Jews of that time only, no they're not. They're for all of us, including all those who belong to Christ.

I let each verse of scripture speak for itself.

When Peter spoke to "men of Israel" in Acts 2, I'm able to understand that this is exactly what he meant.

Am I, I've seen on here over and over people who believe in MAD saying that the teachings of Jesus aren't for them and only the teachings of Paul are for them

Quit broad-brushing me with your vague accusations. I have NEVER said any such thing and your "Christian" morals should keep you from LYING about me.

If you don't believe the teachings of Jesus, and only listen to the teachings of Paul, then Jesus isn't your Messiah, I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ and that his gospel is for me who was a gentile to believe in too and not just for the jews.

CONTINUAL LIES... Is that all you know?

Jesus' gospel is the gospel of God. There is only one gospel and all apostles preached faith and grace. Not only Paul.

You ignore SO much to believe that.

If jews and gentiles become one, then we have one gospel!

Yes, in the gospel of the grace of God given to US ALL through the revelation that the Lord Jesus Christ to Paul.