I never talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit

[Right Divider]

Was the message John preached in 1 John different than the message God intends modern Christians to apply to their lives?

Yes, we are not Israelite's under the law waiting for an earthly kingdom.

 

[marke]

Yes, we are not Israelite's under the law waiting for an earthly kingdom.

I don't understand how John could possibly have been preaching to Jews in 1 John that could not be saved like Gentiles are saved.

 

[glorydaz]

You say there are some believers who must endure to the end in order to be saved, like Noah holding to the outside of the ark in order to be saved from judgment? That sounds like God will judge them on their works, not on their faith.

Well, it isn't what I say, but it is what the Bible says.

Faith and works have been required in every dispensation I can think of......except those who are saved by Paul's gospel, which is faith alone.

It isn't that the works saved them, but that they were required by God. The Kingdom believers must endure to the end in order to have their sins blotted out. Our Lords states it here and Peter explains in Acts 3 below.

Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19-21

 

[glorydaz]

I don't understand how John could possibly have been preaching to Jews in 1 John that could not be saved like Gentiles are saved.

You know that the Jews are God's chosen people. They knew God and believed in Him, but what so many Jews failed to accept was Jesus Christ as the Promised Messiah. The Jews had been given the Law and the Covenants and the Promises, and their salvation was to be received when they were IN their Kingdom with Christ seated on the throne. That is future.

Remember, to whom much has been given, much is expected.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The gentiles, on the other hand, merely had to believe Paul's gospel of grace unto salvation.

 

[Hoping]

Let me ask again. Was John preaching to lost sinners in 1 John when he said "If we say we have no sin (he did not say "if we say we had no sin") we deceive ourselves?

I was a lost sinner when I first read it, so yes, John was preaching to me.
The letter is to the converted. It is about, in part, the unconverted.
It is also about, in part, the converted.
John gives us the means to determine who is actually converted.
If one is walking in darkness, sin, they are not converted.
If one is walking in the light, God, they are converted.

 

[Hoping]

What makes a sinner "unworthy" of eternal life" Drunkenness? Smoking? Gambling?

The sin makes them unworthy.

 

[Hoping]

Says who? Not the Bible.

I disagree.
It is written..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
No darkness at all.
The chapter then goes on to delineate those who are IN DARKNESS from those walking in the light.

The point is that Paul did NOT say "you are incapable of sinning" but rather "don't let sin reign in your bodies."

It is our responsibility, and within our power, to obey Paul's exhortation.

Just because you don't let it reign in your body doesn't mean it's been purged from your body.

It is if one has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins after they have repented of sin.

But we are not sinless.

Speak for yourself.

We are no longer identified as "Sinner."

If one commits sin, they are a sinner.
And, they are neither dead to the law or to sin.

We are identified with Christ.
But that doesn't even REMOTELY imply that we are "without sin"

As there is no sin "in Christ' those "in Christ" cannot have sin on them either.

Wrong.
It's called "the flesh." Again, last I checked, you're still alive.

You may not believe Rom 6:3-7, but it is true.
It is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul said those who are dead are freed from sin.
You're not dead yet, therefore you're not freed from sin.

I am dead, as I have faith that the word of God is true in Rom 6:3-7.
And I have faith in Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And I have faith in 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

He then said "CONSIDER yourselves freed from sin," because in Christ we are alive to God.

Why won't you do that then?

But he's not talking about our bodies, he's talking about our spirits.

I guess the proof of that is in the pudding.
If your spirit is dead, then you will be free from sin, as per Rom 6:7.

He then goes even further later on:
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? - Romans 7:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:1&version=NKJV
Remember, you're not dead yet.

I was killed many years ago with Christ at my "immersion" into His death and burial.
Thanks be to God though, I was also raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Quickened by the Spirit. (Rom 8:11)

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:15-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:15-25&version=NKJV

That is Paul's narrative of life under the Law, and in the flesh instead of in the Spirit. (Rom 7:5)
Rom 7:23 is answered in Rom 8:2.
Rom 7:24 was answered in Rom 6:6.

Sin dwells in the flesh. We are not freed from the flesh. Our Spirits are freed from the law, yes, but our flesh has yet to be glorified. So while we're on earth, we have to put up with the flesh, and therefore sin, because sin dwells in the flesh.

Too bad you can't have faith in what is written in Rom 6, and elsewhere.
Then your old man would be dead and buried and a new creature would have been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Not if they've Romans 10:9'ed.
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9&version=NKJV

I thank God I believed that...when I called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ at my baptism in that name for the remission of my past sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

That's a guarantee. Or are you calling Paul a liar?

Paul isn't the liar, it is the folks who say that Jesus is their Lord but still serve other master that are the liars.

 

[Hoping]

So the wording of 1 John 7 is slightly off in your opinion? Should the passage have been written, "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus must have already cleansed us from sin."?

It isn't "off" per-se, but the context makes it seem "off'.
If you look at 1 John 1:5-10 as an address to those in darkness alternating with an address to those in the light it makes perfect sense.
A,B-A,B-A,B.
5,6-7,8,-9,10.
Light,-dark, light,-dark, light-darkness.

Verse 10 says "if we say we have not sinned we make him a liar." Let's assume that simply means if we say we never sinned before we were saved then we are lying. But verse 8 says "if we say we have no sin" we err. Notice the wording. The passage does not say "if we say we had no sin" as if the verse is intended to refer to our past. The verse does not refer to our past but to our present.

Both verses address those who walk in darkness, but you are correct about the "never sinned in my life" interpretation.
It is written..."The way of the wicked is as darkness..." (Pro 4:19)

Let's look at this again. Verse 7 says if we walk in the light Jesus's blood cleanses us from sin. It does not say if we walk in the light then Jesus' blood must have already cleansed us from sin beforehand.

The comma between "...fellowship one with another, and the blood..." Should have been a period.
John is adding a second thought to the verse.

If walking in the light is essential to salvation what happens to those who walk with Jesus at first but then walk no longer with Him?

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Your John 6:66 verse is OT, and we are now in the NT.
In the OT, men came and went as their level of faith compelled them.
In the NT we have the exact definition of who is actually born of God and who isn't.
1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
If one is reborn of God's seed, they cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Like the parables about grapes from thistles and figs from vines...it can't happen.

What about babes in Christ? Do they always do those things that please the Father? No.
1 Corinthians 3
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Verse 3 would have been better interpreted if the "babes" part had been before the "carnal" part.
This was actually meant as an insult, (perhaps too strong of a word), to the Corinthians...like a jab in the ribs to get with the program.
He couldn't yet talk to them as Spiritually based men because they acted as if they still walked in the flesh.

I thank you for providing the scriptures you have questions about.

 

[Hoping]

God gave many signs to Jews but He declares that signs shall have no part in the preaching of the Cross to modern sinners.

Really, in spite of the flames above the heads of the disciples on the day of Pentecost and their ability to speak foreign languages?
How many times did a piece of Paul]s clothing heal the recipient of said clothing? (Acts 19:12)
That wasn't a sign?
Where did Jesus say no signs would be given to modern sinners?

 

[Hoping]

If you guys would just accept that John and the other disciples were preaching the Kingdom gospel and not the gospel of grace, you'd stop with this back and forth that has nothing to do with you.

The kingdom gospel...Jesus preached over and over again that "the kingdom of God is come near you".
It is still "come near to you".
Mark 1 :15..."And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Don't you believe the kingdom good news?
I do, as the kingdom is in my heart.

 

[Hoping]

You say there are some believers who must endure to the end in order to be saved, like Noah holding to the outside of the ark in order to be saved from judgment? That sounds like God will judge them on their works, not on their faith.

Where is the faith in someone who murders, lies, steals, and commits adultery?
As Jesus said..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)
Our deeds are the means of our future disposition.

 

[marke]

Well, it isn't what I say, but it is what the Bible says.

Faith and works have been required in every dispensation I can think of......except those who are saved by Paul's gospel, which is faith alone.

It isn't that the works saved them, but that they were required by God. The Kingdom believers must endure to the end in order to have their sins blotted out. Our Lords states it here and Peter explains in Acts 3 below.

Matt. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19-21

I am not convinced that you understand what is meant by "endureth to the end." Does that mean "remaining sinless until the end?" I see no justification for such an interpretation.

 

[marke]

You know that the Jews are God's chosen people. They knew God and believed in Him, but what so many Jews failed to accept was Jesus Christ as the Promised Messiah. The Jews had been given the Law and the Covenants and the Promises, and their salvation was to be received when they were IN their Kingdom with Christ seated on the throne. That is future.

Remember, to whom much has been given, much is expected.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The gentiles, on the other hand, merely had to believe Paul's gospel of grace unto salvation.

I am not following you. You seem to be suggesting that Gentiles could be saved and have all their sins removed immediately forever but that no Jew could. I have never seen anything in the Bible to suggest more than one way to heaven.

 

[marke]

I was a lost sinner when I first read it, so yes, John was preaching to me.
The letter is to the converted. It is about, in part, the unconverted.
It is also about, in part, the converted.
John gives us the means to determine who is actually converted.
If one is walking in darkness, sin, they are not converted.
If one is walking in the light, God, they are converted.

What does the verse say?

1. "If we say we had no sin," or
2. "If we say we have no sin"?

 

[marke]

The sin makes them unworthy.

Sin makes them unworthy? What sin? Like Peter's sin of denying the Lord Jesus? When do you think Peter got saved? After he was baptized? Did he never sin after he was baptized? Wasn't Peter a Jew? Is it true he would never have been delivered from sin on this earth and only saved in the world to come if he endured unto the end, whatever that means?

 

[Hoping]

What does the verse say?

1. "If we say we had no sin," or
2. "If we say we have no sin"?

Verse 8 of 1 John says "have no sin"
Verse 10 says "have not sinned".

 

[marke]

It isn't "off" per-se, but the context makes it seem "off'.
If you look at 1 John 1:5-10 as an address to those in darkness alternating with an address to those in the light it makes perfect sense.
A,B-A,B-A,B.
5,6-7,8,-9,10.
Light,-dark, light,-dark, light-darkness.

Both verses address those who walk in darkness, but you are correct about the "never sinned in my life" interpretation.
It is written..."The way of the wicked is as darkness..." (Pro 4:19)

The comma between "...fellowship one with another, and the blood..." Should have been a period.
John is adding a second thought to the verse.

Your John 6:66 verse is OT, and we are now in the NT.
In the OT, men came and went as their level of faith compelled them.
In the NT we have the exact definition of who is actually born of God and who isn't.
1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
If one is reborn of God's seed, they cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Like the parables about grapes from thistles and figs from vines...it can't happen.

Verse 3 would have been better interpreted if the "babes" part had been before the "carnal" part.
This was actually meant as an insult, (perhaps too strong of a word), to the Corinthians...like a jab in the ribs to get with the program.
He couldn't yet talk to them as Spiritually based men because they acted as if they still walked in the flesh.

I thank you for providing the scriptures you have questions about.

Alternating audiences? I cannot see that. It seems you are straining very hard to fit a bad doctrine into harmonizing context with Biblical truth when it doesn't fit.

 

[Hoping]

Sin makes them unworthy? What sin?

Any sin.

Like Peter's sin of denying the Lord Jesus?

Yes.

When do you think Peter got saved? After he was baptized? Did he never sin after he was baptized? Wasn't Peter a Jew? Is it true he would never have been delivered from sin on this earth and only saved in the world to come if he endured unto the end, whatever that means?

The Jews had the atonements of the Law for their sins.
After Peter received the gift of the Holy Ghost, his Jewish faith became a Christian's faith.
He himself described how a man should turn from sin, repentance, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins. (Acts 2:38)
Salvation will be acquired when we know our names are in the book of life on the last day.

 

[marke]

Verse 8 of 1 John says "have no sin"
Verse 10 says "have not sinned".

"Have no sin" refers to the present. "Had no sin" refers to the past.

 

[Hoping]

Alternating audiences? I cannot see that. It seems you are straining very hard to fit a bad doctrine into harmonizing context with Biblical truth when it doesn't fit.

I'm sorry you can't see it.
Why can't a man who has had all his sins washed away by the blood of Christ, (V7), say has has no sin, (v8)?
The conflict there can only be resolved with the alternating verse system.
The same alternating verse system Paul uses in Rom 8 to juxtapose those who walk in the flesh from those who walk in the Spirit.