How the Gospel Refutes All Religions and Reconciles Us to God

[musterion]

The unstated premise here is that the billionaire is doing nothing actual, only something potential, wholly dependent upon the evil and recalcitrant recipient. Such a billionaire is but one who likes to hedge his bets.

Au contraire. The billionaire has already cut the check and endorsed it to you. His doing so depended on nothing inherent in you, only his love for you. So the check is good -- all you need do is thankfully accept it and believe he's trustworthy enough to not put a stop on the check when you go to cash it (which, for the purposes of this analogy, he [God] won't).

More properly stated, a billionaire deposits money in a particular person's account and forever keeps the promises for removal of past, present, and future debts owed by the evil and recalcitrant recipient. It is all irrevocable, and the billionaire will take all necessary steps to ensure it is so. Further, upon the instance of the transation, the evil and recalcitrant recipient's former inability to understand the good news of this wonderful transaction is restored to an ability to not not accept the deposit and promises, for the recipient now genuinely wants to do so.

This is a billioinare who actually makes happen what he intended to happen in each and every case for which he set out to do.



AMR

Let's be thorough here. In your version, the billionaire also damns for eternity everyone he secretly never cut a check for, and tells everyone he's doing so on the grounds that they refused to accept the check he offered to them. :AMR:

In short, your billionaire is a lot like George Soros...a liar.

 

[beloved57]

I did and I know of many others that came to Christ by their own free will. How do you explain that?

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ. They hear, they believe, and they are born again, just like on the day of Pentecost. 8,000 Jews were saved by hearing Peter's Gospel. Some of them had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36.

You don't believe the Gospel, you believe sinners Christ died for are going to perish in their sins anyways!

 

[beloved57]

My neighbor loved his sins more than he loved Christ. He heard the Gospel and rejected the call of the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. I heard the same Gospel and by my own free will accepted Christ as my savior. Hebrews 4:2.

Boasting over his neighbor and still does not believe the Gospel.

 

[musterion]

You don't believe the Gospel, you believe sinners Christ died for are going to perish in their sins anyways!

If they don't accept the billionaire's check paying off 100% of their debt, their debt is still 100% on them. I know you're not so stupid that you can't grasp that simple fact. It's what reveals you to be a troll.

 

[Robert Pate]

Boasting over his neighbor and still does not believe the Gospel.

Your Gospel is a false Gospel. Everyone knows that.

 

[beloved57]

Your Gospel is a false Gospel. Everyone knows that.

You a boaster and in unbelief.

 

[Robert Pate]

You a boaster and in unbelief.

Your Gospel is not the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world to God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Your Gospel is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. But don't let that bother you, you have John Calvin.

 

[beloved57]

Your Gospel is not the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world to God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Your Gospel is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. But don't let that bother you, you have John Calvin.

What kind of gospel teaches that sinners Christ died for are going to perish in their sins anyways? A false one.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

My neighbor loved his sins more than he loved Christ. He heard the Gospel and rejected the call of the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. I heard the same Gospel and by my own free will accepted Christ as my savior. Hebrews 4:2.

So you were more discerning and wise than your neighbor?

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I know you knew where I was headed: one of the places Reformed thought provides no logical answer.

If you were elect from eternity past (a big assumption in itself since no one can say with 100% certainty), then you were not unsaved -- in the sense of at risk of damnation -- before you believed.

I provided the logical answer. The matter is not what we think we know about the secret will of God, but what we should know from His revealed will in Scripture.

Hodge asks,

“If God has eternally decreed that you should live, what is the use of your breathing? If God has eternally decreed that you should talk, what is the use of your opening your mouth? If God has eternally decreed that you should reap a crop, what is the use of your sowing the seed? If God has eternally decreed that your stomach should contain food, what is the use of your eating.”

Hodge answers his own questions:

“In order to educate us, [God] demands that we should use the means, or go without the ends which depend upon them. There are plenty of fools who make the transcendental nature of eternity and of the relation of the eternal life of God to the time-life of man an excuse for neglecting prayer. But of all the many fools in the United States, there is not one absurd enough to make the same eternal decree an excuse for not chewing his food or for not voluntarily inflating his lungs.”

Further, the assurance of anyone's faith, Calvinist or otherwise, is not guesswork...

Spoiler

As is stated from the WCF

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Cant. 5:2, 3, 6, Ps. 51:8, 12, 14, Eph. 4:30, 31,Ps. 77:1-10, Matt. 26:69-72, Ps. 31:22, Ps. 88, Isa. 50:10)

...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9, Luke 22:32, Job 13:15, Ps. 73:15, Ps. 51:8, 12, Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9, Jer. 32:40, Isa. 54:7-10, Ps. 22:1, Ps. 88)"

It is to believers that assurance belongs. It does not belong to those who "know" just how much or how excellent is their faith. It is the Object of our faith that saves, and it is His hold on us, not our hold on Him. Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed is more than enough to save the weakest sinner--let it only be in Christ.

From the WLC:

"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.

"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."

The "graces" that you are enabled to see in yourself to which the promises of life are made are discussed in the WLC:

1. Faith (Question 32)
2. Justification (Question 73)
3. Good works (Question 73, 75)
4. Repentance unto life (Question 75, 76)
5. Sanctification (Question 75)

From the Canons of Dordt:

"Article 12: The Assurance of Election

"Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God's Word-- such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

"Article 13: The Fruit of This Assurance

"In their awareness and assurance of this election God's children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of his mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to him who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God's children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God's just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen."

That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Au contraire. The billionaire has already cut the check and endorsed it to you. His doing so depended on nothing inherent in you, only his love for you. So the check is good -- all you need do is thankfully accept it and believe he's trustworthy enough to not put a stop on the check when you go to cash it (which, for the purposes of this analogy, he [God] won't).

Again, mere potentiality, not actuality, given your view that the check may not be accepted.

Let's be thorough here. In your version, the billionaire also damns for eternity everyone he secretly never cut a check for, and tells everyone he's doing so on the grounds that they refused to accept the check he offered to them. :AMR:

Yes, let's be more complete. In my version the billionaire is actually the one who created all around Him, God, if you will. Hence one's duty is not to seek to apprehend the secret will of God, but to obey the revealed will of God. That revealed will is patently clear that this perfect God holds man responsible, whether or not man is able to do what he ought to do. There is no "moral necessity" for God to limit His commands to that which men can naturally perform. The possibility that a creature might resent God for such a command is irrelevant; and resentment would only occur to the sinful creature anyway, while a good creature would only be too-willing to die in the attempt. "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

When one is not fully aright with the impacts of the fall of Adam, much confusion arises...

How can God command people to obey the law knowing it was impossible for them to do so? See Rom. 3:20. A command does not necessarily imply ability. This is sufficiently clear in the case of the law.

Man willingly (though his will is in bondage to sin) refuses to obey God and chooses sin. He is not forced to sin, he sins willingly.

How else can man be responsible for not obeying God seeing that his nature is sinful? He, that is, man, or the human race, as represented in Adam, had ability to will and to do what is good, and lost it by sin; and that, therefore, man is responsible for the want of it.

Man was able to obey the law, to discharge this whole duty, in the condition in which he was created. If he is not in a different condition—one in which he is no longer able to discharge this duty—this does not remove or invalidate his obligation to perform it. While man has lost his ability to obey, God has not lost His right to command. Nor does man's inability to obey render the command ineffective. Regenerating grace breaks the heart of stone and inclines the renewed man to obedience.

God is wholly sovereign, man is wholly responsible...

In Acts 2:23 we read, “Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death”.

This verse clearly teaches that the crucifixion of our Lord was planned, predicted, and determined before it happened and all the devils in Hell or men on earth could not keep Jesus from the cross—it was determined by a sovereign God. Yet at the same time, wicked men—acting freely—were charged with this wicked act. In Acts 4:24—30, God puts these two truths side by side without apology or explanation. Here this apparent contradiction and seeming conflict is expressed in a prayer.

“So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: ‘Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: “Why did the nations rage, and the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the LORD and against His Christ.” For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Peter and John were in prison when they prayed this prayer. Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were said to be carrying out what God had purposed and determined was to be done before it was actually done.

In the first truth we see that God is one hundred percent sovereign in planning and determining. At the same time the verse teaches the second truth, that wicked men are one hundred percent responsible for their wicked deeds.

If we examine these two truths separately, we will conclude that from Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches that the God of the Bible is one hundred percent sovereign—sovereign in creation, sovereign in redemption, and sovereign in providence—and that from Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches that man is one hundred percent responsible for his sin. Therefore, we have no alternative but to believe both are true, even though with our finite minds we cannot reconcile them or harmonize them.

Factor the above underlying presuppositions into my version and your objection has been answered. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Angel4Truth]

So you were more discerning and wise than your neighbor?

AMR

Why is one sinner a murderer and why is one merely a liar? Is one more wise than the other and a little less corrupt as a result?

You ask that question as though one has no will at all, yet you agree we have a will of our own.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Why is one sinner a murderer and why is one merely a liar? Is one more wise than the other and a little less corrupt as a result?

You ask that question as though one has no will at all, yet you agree we have a will of our own.

I really wanted to understand Robert Pate's view of what in him caused him to choose wisely before he was re-born. He has answered. Robert implies that he was more wise and discerning than was his neighbor:

My neighbor loved his sins more than he loved Christ. He heard the Gospel and rejected the call of the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. I heard the same Gospel and by my own free will accepted Christ as my savior. Hebrews 4:2.

That one may be a greater sinner than another is not in dispute, for all are born sinners. The lost can only sin more or sin less. The lost cannot not sin. By this it is meant that sin—its power, its influence, its inclination—affects the whole person. Our bodies are fallen, our hearts are fallen, and our minds are fallen—there's no part of us that escapes the ravages of our sinful human nature. Sin affects our behavior, our thought life, and even our conversation. The whole person is fallen.

The unregenerated man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9); full of evil (Mark 7:21-23); not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2); cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5); loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19); unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12); helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6); dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1); by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3); cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20); and must be quickened by God (Deut 29:4, 30:6; Eze. 36:26; Eph. 2:4-5) to overcome this fallen state of affairs. This is the true extent of our sinfulness when judged by the standard and the norm of God's perfection and holiness.

Further, I have never denied that all possess free will. I simply maintain that the free will spoken of is one's ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations when one so chooses. This the liberty of spontaneity, the self-determination, all possess. There are no un-caused choices. One's choices spring from one's inclinations.

The lost are wholly inclined to sin for they possess no moral ability to choose to not sin until God first does a work within them via the Holy Spirit (Deut 29:4, 30:6; Eze. 36:26; Eph. 2:4-5). All mankind, as represented in Adam, had ability to will and to do what is good, and lost it by sin and therefore, man is responsible for the lack of the ability they once possessed in the loins of unfallen Adam.

In spite of the above teachings from Scripture, Robert maintains he heard the good news and chose wisely of his own free will. Robert apparently believes, as do not a few, that the ability to not sin is retained in all that are in fallen Adam, hence Robert is able of his own power to do what Scripture says only God can do. This is in direct contravention to the judicial judgement that fell upon Adam for his sin—and all of Adam's progeny—the imputation of Adam's sin to all his offspring (you, me, and all mankind).

AMR

 

[Angel4Truth]

I really wanted to understand Robert Pate's view of what in him caused him to choose wisely before he was re-born. He has answered. Robert implies that he was more wise and discerning than was his neighbor:



That one may be a greater sinner than another is not in dispute, for all are born sinners. The lost can only sin more or sin less. The lost cannot not sin. By this it is meant that sin—its power, its influence, its inclination—affects the whole person. Our bodies are fallen, our hearts are fallen, and our minds are fallen—there's no part of us that escapes the ravages of our sinful human nature. Sin affects our behavior, our thought life, and even our conversation. The whole person is fallen.

The unregenerated man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9); full of evil (Mark 7:21-23); not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2); cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5); loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19); unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12); helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6); dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1); by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3); cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20); and must be quickened by God (Deut 29:4, 30:6; Eze. 36:26; Eph. 2:4-5) to overcome this fallen state of affairs. This is the true extent of our sinfulness when judged by the standard and the norm of God's perfection and holiness.

Further, I have never denied that all possess free will. I simply maintain that the free will spoken of is one's ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations when one so chooses. This the liberty of spontaneity, the self-determination, all possess. There are no un-caused choices. One's choices spring from one's inclinations.

The lost are wholly inclined to sin for they possess no moral ability to choose to not sin until God first does a work within them via the Holy Spirit (Deut 29:4, 30:6; Eze. 36:26; Eph. 2:4-5). All mankind, as represented in Adam, had ability to will and to do what is good, and lost it by sin and therefore, man is responsible for the lack of the ability they once possessed in the loins of unfallen Adam.

In spite of the above teachings from Scripture, Robert maintains he heard the good news and chose wisely of his own free will. Robert apparently believes, as do not a few, that the ability to not sin is retained in all that are in fallen Adam, hence Robert is able of his own power to do what Scripture says only God can do. This is in direct contravention to the judicial judgement that fell upon Adam for his sin—and all of Adam's progeny—the imputation of Adam's sin to all his offspring (you, me, and all mankind).

AMR

The bible says men loved the darkness rather than the light.

It also says this: 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them.

They refused it, obviously they could choose.

Why does each day someone choose a lie over the truth about anything? Because they want something else to be the truth. They like sin better than the truth.

 

[Samie]

Both Arminians and Calvinists believe that people are born in sin. Hence, people start out in life already lost. But as pointed out in an earlier post, Jesus taught otherwise in the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner. Before the son went lost, he was with his father. So with us sinners. We started out not lost. And to be not lost is to be in Christ.

I wonder whether Robert Pate, B57, AMR and others have any explanation on this.

 

[Robert Pate]

So you were more discerning and wise than your neighbor?

AMR

Same as in Hebrews 4:2. Some hear and believe. Some don't. Who knows why?

 

[Robert Pate]

Both Arminians and Calvinists believe that people are born in sin. Hence, people start out in life already lost. But as pointed out in an earlier post, Jesus taught otherwise in the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner. Before the son went lost, he was with his father. So with us sinners. We started out not lost. And to be not lost is to be in Christ.

I wonder whether Robert Pate, B57, AMR and others have any explanation on this.

Jesus said, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost" Matthew 18:11.

I haven't seen one person that was not a sinner and did not need to be saved.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus said, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost" Matthew 18:11.

I haven't seen one person that was not a sinner and did not need to be saved.

You teach that sinners Christ came to seek and to save still wind up lost in their sins! That's total disrespect to the Saviour!

 

[Robert Pate]

You teach that sinners Christ came to seek and to save still wind up lost in their sins! That's total disrespect to the Saviour!

Do you really believe that Jesus saves sinners that hate him.

Is heaven going to be full of God hating, Christ rejecting sinners like yourself. If it is, I don't want to be there.

 

[Lilstu]

Do you really believe that Jesus saves sinners that hate him.

Is heaven going to be full of God hating, Christ rejecting sinners like yourself. If it is, I don't want to be there.

Good comment!
I'm sure there are many on this forum that would make it hell to spend eternity with them.