How the Gospel Refutes All Religions and Reconciles Us to God

Lilstu

New member
If the saved are predestined and the losers are predestined, how does one know which category they are in?

I am not a theologian, so it seems like Jesus wasted a lot of time preaching to people if everything has already been decided.
Why bother getting crucified and resurrected if the winners have already been chosen?

It seems to me that one has to have an awfully huge ego to think that they have been chosen. IMO an ego so large that I wouldn't want to be around them.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Salvation is our choice and everyone will have an opportunity to make an informed choice.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Religion is not an indication of faith.......

....but it is the regular, dedicated practice of that faith. Religion without faith may be useless, but faith without religion is often chaotic and misdirected. God designed human nature, and he knows how we are. You people here, imagine our daily life with no structure: No clock to wake up by, no work schedule, no school schedule, no appointments for anything, just running around like a madman doing whatever, whenever. It would never work. That is what a believer without religion is. That's why your posts generally of a blob of nonsense.
 

fishrovmen

Active member
Of course you see no contradiction, despite the plain evidence before us all, Robert.

When you...

- deny the infallibility of Scripture;
- limit what God actually knows;
- believe that God is absent on earth;
- think the dead saints merely sleep in the grave before the resurrection;
- believe no one deserves eternal punishment;
- deny eternal punishment in favor of annihilation; and
- hopes that even in death the unbelievers are given a second chance to repent,

...it is no wonder you cannot recognize contradictions seen by even the most casual observer of your own words.

AMR

Good post; and that is only a small portion of his contradictions.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
I see. You want to avoid the more recent topic and move onwards. :AMR:

Nevertheless, I am happy to provide you with a response to test just how "engaging" you are willing to be, Robert.

The reasons are why predestination should be embraced is because Our Lord and the apostles frequently taught it, since it appears from in the Gospels, e.g., Matthew 11:20, 25; 13:11; 25:34; Luke 10:20; 12:32; John 8:47; 15:16 and in other places. Predestination is also is taught from the epistles of Paul, the whole of Rom. 9 and Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Thess. 5:9; 2 Thess. 2:13. Further, Peter, James and John express themselves who speak repeatedly of the mystery of predestination whenever occasion offered.

So if it was proper for Our Lord and the Apostles to teach predestination, why is it not proper for us to learn it? Why should God teach what would have been better not spoken about? Why did God wish to proclaim those things which it would be better not to know? Do we wish to be more prudent than God or to prescribe rules to God? I hope not. Predestination is part and parcel of Scripture and we should not run from what Scripture has to teach us about the matter.

Let's consider the sense in which the words predestination, prognseos, ekloges, and protheseos are used in Scripture. Since the Scriptures use various words in explaining the mystery of predestination, we must premise certain things concerning these words used by Scripture.

The word predestination is being used here, and it must not be passed over lightly. For although the word proorismou does not exist in the Scriptures, yet the verb from which it comes is often read, see Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30 Ephesians 1:5. Moreover to predestinate (or proorizein from the force of the verb) signifies to determine something concerning things before they take place and to direct them to a certain end.

However, it is understood by the inspired writers in three ways.

Spoiler

Firstly, the word is understood more widely for every decree of God about creatures and most especially about moral creatures in order to their ultimate end.

Secondly, more specially for the counsel of God concerning men as fallen either to be saved by grace or to be damned by justice, which is commonly called election and reprobation.

Thirdly, most specially for the decree of election, which is called the predestination of the saints. Again according to the latter, it can be taken in two senses: not only for the destination to the end, but particularly for the destination to the means. In this sense it is used by Paul when he says that God predestinated those whom he foreknew to be conformed to the image of his Son, Rom. 8:29, 30. Here it is plain that predestination is distinguished from foreknowledge and refers most especially to the end. Thus after saying that God hath chosen us in Christ, the having predestinated us unto the adoption of children (proorisasian, Eph. 1:5) to mark the destination of means ordained for obtaining the salvation destined by election.


There are four reasons why predestination embraces reprobation.


Spoiler

Firstly, the Scripture extends the word proorizein to the wicked acts of those reprobates who procured the crucifixion of Christ-the son of man goeth kata to horismenon (Luke 22:22; Acts 4:28), Herod and Pontius Pilate did nothing but what the hand of God proorise to be done. Nor should an objection be made that it does not teach of their reprobation, but of the ordination of the crucifixion to a good end. The crucifixion of Our Lord—which is to us the means of salvation—was to the crucifiers the means of damnation, which depended on the most just decree of God.

Secondly, the Scripture uses equivalent phrases when it says that certain persons are appointed to wrath (1 Thess. 5:9; 1 Peter 2:8), fitted to destruction (Rom. 9:22), ordained to condemnation (Jude 4), made unto dishonor (Romans 9:21) and for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4). If reprobation is described in these phrases, is it not proper that it be expressed by the word predestination?

Thirdly, because the definition of predestination—the ordination of a thing to its end by means before it comes to pass—is no less suitable to reprobation than to election.

The second word related to predestination which occurs more frequently is prognosis. Paul speaks of it more than once: whom he did foreknow (hous proegno), Rom. 8:29); he hath not cast away his people which proegna (Rom. 11:2); and they are called elect according to foreknowledge (kata prognosin, 1 Peter 1:2).

Given that ancient and more modern Pelagian leaning folks. for example Arminians, falsely abuse this word to establish the foresight of faith and works, one must observe that prognosin can be taken in two ways: either theoretically or practically.

In the theoretical way, prognosin is taken for God’s simple knowledge of future things, which is called prescience and pertains to God's intellect.

In the practical way, prognosin is taken for the practical love and decree which God formed concerning the salvation of particular persons and pertains to God's will. In this sense, knowledge is often used for delight and approbation (Psalm 1:6); John 10:14; 2 Timothy 2:19). Thus ginoskein signifies not only to know but also to know and to judge concerning a thing.

So when the Scripture uses the word prognoseos in the doctrine of predestination, it is not in the theoretical sense as to the bare foreknowledge of God by which He foresaw the faith or works of men. Rather it is taken in the practical sense for practical foreknowledge—the love and election of God—that we may not suppose it to be without reason, although the reasons of God's wisdom may escape us, in which manner Our Lord is said to have been foreknown [proegnsmenos], that is foreordained by God before the foundation of the world, 1 Pet. 1:20.

Again, in that benevolence and practical foreknowledge of God is distinguished two things: (1) the love and benevolence with which God pursues us; and (2) the decree itself by which God determined to unfold His love to us by the communication of salvation.

Therefore it happens in Scripture that prognosis is at one time taken broader for both (love and election, as in Rom. 8:29 and Rom. 11:2); at other times in Scripture, more strictly for love and favor which is the fountain and foundation of election. This is why Peter speaks of it when he says that believers are elect according to the foreknowledge (kata prognosin), that is, the love of God (1 Peter 1:2).

The word ekloges (election) which now and then occurs, is not always to be taken with the same significance as above. Sometimes election denotes a call to some political or sacred office (as Saul is elected (1 Samuel 10:24); Judas elected, to the Apostleship, John 6:70). Sometimes election designates an external election and separation of a certain people to the covenant of God, in which sense the people of Israel are said to be elected of God, Deut. 4:37.

But in this discussion about one's destiny, election is taken objectively for the elect themselves (as ekloge epetychenthe election—the elect hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded, Romans 11:7); or formally for the act of God electing (which is called ekloge charitos, Romans 9:11). The act of God electing may be considered either in the antecedent decree from eternity or in the subsequent execution of the decree as it takes place only in time by calling. Our Lord refers to this in John 15:16: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you; and Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world (John 15:19).

In other words, we can join the decree and its execution by saying, We are elected before the foundation of the world by that predestination in which God foresaw his future things would take place; we are chosen out of the world however by that calling by which God fulfills what God has predestinated.

Election then, by the force of the word, is stricter than predestination. For all can predestined, but all cannot be elected because God who elects does not take all, but chooses a great number out of all. The election of a great number necessarily implies the passing and rejecting of others: Many are called, said Our Lord, but few chosen (Matthew 20:16); and likewise Paul, The election hath obtained, and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:7). Hence Paul uses the verb heilto to designate election, which implies the separation of some from others: God from the beginning heilto, that is, hath taken out and separated you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth (2 Thess. 2:13).

Fourthly, the word prothesis is often used by Paul in the matter of election to denote that this counsel of God is not an empty and inefficacious act of willing, but the constant, determined and immutable purpose of God (Romans 8:28; 9:11; Ephesians 1:11).

For the word prothesis is of the highest efficacy and is called distinctly by Paul prothesis tou ta energountosthe purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11). Sometimes prothesis is applied to election as prothesis kat’ eklogenthe purpose of God according to election (Romans 9:11); and we are said to be predestinated (kata prothesin, Ephesians 1:11). Sometimes prothesis is joined with calling—who are the called according to his purpose (tois kata prosthesin kletois, Romans 8:28). For both election and calling depend and are built upon this purpose of God.


Now although these words are often employed promiscuously in Scripture, they are frequently distinguished. It is not without reason are they used by the Holy Spirit to denote the various conditions of that decree which could not so adequately be explained by a single word. For God's decree can be conceived in relation to the principle from which it arises, or to the object about which it is concerned, or to the means by which it is fulfilled.

Spoiler

With regard to the principle, protheseos or eudokias—which denotes the counsel and good pleasure of God—is mentioned as the first cause of that work. With regard to the object, it is called prognosis or ekloge—which is occupied with the separation of certain persons from others unto salvation. With regard to the means, the word proorismou is used according to which God prepared the means necessary to the obtainment of salvation.

Prothesis refers to the end; prognosis refers to the objects; proorismos to the means; prodiesis to the certainty of the event; prognosis and ekloge to the singleness and distinction of persons; proorismos to the order of means. Thus election is certain and immutable by prothesin; determinate and definite by prognosin; and ordinate by proorismon.

These three degrees, if we may so speak in order to answer to three acts in the temporal execution, are seen at play in Scsripture, for as we will be glorified with the Father, redeemed by the Son and called through the Holy Spirit, so the Father determined from eternity to glorify us with Himself. This is prothesis.

God elected us in his Son. This is prognosis.

God predestinated us to grace and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Who seals the image of the Son in us through His holiness and the suffering on the cross. This is proorismos.

For as the Father sends the Son, the Son with the Father sends the Holy Spirit. And vice versa, the Holy Spirit leads us to the Son, and the Son at length conducts us to the Father.


Finally, the words by which the predestination of the members is described in Scripture are also employed to express the predestination of the Head. For concerning Him equally prothesis is predicated when Paul says hon proetheto hilastion (Rom. 3:25); prognosis where we have proegnesmenos (1 Pet. 1:20); and proorismos, not only when He is said to be horistheis to be the Son of God (Rom. 1:4), but also when Our Lord's death is said to have happened by the determinate counsel of God and by His predestination, who proorise to be done whatever was done by Herod and Pontius Pilate (Acts 2:23).

You have my answer, now, Robert. If we are really engaging now, do so with my answer using more than denials and mere citations of Scripture.

AMR

To deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord. You cannot be saved if you deny that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Please don't try to impress me with your long wordy post.

Do you or do you not, confess that Jesus is the savior of the whole world as it was proclaimed by the apostle John?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
....but it is the regular, dedicated practice of that faith. Religion without faith may be useless, but faith without religion is often chaotic and misdirected. God designed human nature, and he knows how we are. You people here, imagine our daily life with no structure: No clock to wake up by, no work schedule, no school schedule, no appointments for anything, just running around like a madman doing whatever, whenever. It would never work. That is what a believer without religion is. That's why your posts generally of a blob of nonsense.


Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel. Trying to be good enough to be saved, is not saving faith. It is nothing but pure religion.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
....but it is the regular, dedicated practice of that faith. Religion without faith may be useless, but faith without religion is often chaotic and misdirected. God designed human nature, and he knows how we are. You people here, imagine our daily life with no structure: No clock to wake up by, no work schedule, no school schedule, no appointments for anything, just running around like a madman doing whatever, whenever. It would never work. That is what a believer without religion is. That's why your posts generally of a blob of nonsense.
Saving faith is always faith in Christ and his Gospel. Trying to be good enough to be saved, is not saving faith. It is nothing but pure religion.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.

However, if you would like to discuss the BIBLICAL TRUTH that works are salvific and that faith AND works are necessary, I'll be happy to educate you.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.

However, if you would like to discuss the BIBLICAL TRUTH that works are salvific and that faith AND works are necessary, I'll be happy to educate you.

It is the Holy Spirit working in the life of the believer that produces good works, Ephesians 2:10.

You have the cart ahead of the horse.

There is no saving merit in the works of a sinner, of which we are all one of.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
To deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord. You cannot be saved if you deny that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Please don't try to impress me with your long wordy post.

Do you or do you not, confess that Jesus is the savior of the whole world as it was proclaimed by the apostle John?

Do deny that Christ shed His Blood for sinners, and they still wind up in hell, is to deny that Jesus can save sinners !
 

musterion

Well-known member
Do deny that Christ shed His Blood for sinners, and they still wind up in hell, is to deny that Jesus can save sinners !

The shed Blood was God's part. Faith in that fact is man's part. God still requires faith from those for whom the Blood was shed. If the refuse to believe, the Blood won't save them.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Do deny that Christ shed His Blood for sinners, and they still wind up in hell, is to deny that Jesus can save sinners !

God does not impose salvation on anyone, nor does he send people to hell. They send themselves there because like you, they don't have faith.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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To deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord. You cannot be saved if you deny that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Please don't try to impress me with your long wordy post.
So much for "engaging". :AMR:

Do you or do you not, confess that Jesus is the savior of the whole world as it was proclaimed by the apostle John?
A question I have answered time and again, Robert.

If your view of "world" is this, then I deny the assertion you are making, given the obvious implication from such a view that each and every person's sins have been atoned for by Our Lord.

I do not agree with any notions of hypothetical atonement. Our Lord atoned for those that will believe, no more, no less. Scripture is clear not all will believe. Hence, He did not atone for these persons, else they would not not believe.

I do not subscribe to non-Scriptural views that make Our Lord's active and passive obedience merely potential. Our Lord came to actually atone for those specifically given to Him by God the Father (John 6:37-39).

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
So much for "engaging". :AMR:


A question I have answered time and again, Robert.

If your view of "world" is this, then I deny the assertion you are making, given the obvious implication from such a view that each and every person's sins have been atoned for by Our Lord.

I do not agree with any notions of hypothetical atonement. Our Lord atoned for those that will believe, no more, no less. Scripture is clear not all will believe. Hence, He did not atone for these persons, else they would not not believe.

I do not subscribe to non-Scriptural views that make Our Lord's active and passive obedience merely potential. Our Lord came to actually atone for those specifically given to Him by God the Father (John 6:37-39).

AMR

The very foundation of the Gospel is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, as proclaimed by the apostle John, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14. Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47. Your denial of this most important doctrine is proof that you are outside of the faith and are a heretic.
 

Angel4Truth

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That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.

However, if you would like to discuss the BIBLICAL TRUTH that works are salvific and that faith AND works are necessary, I'll be happy to educate you.

Works are evidence of faith, they do not result in faith. Faith is a gift of God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; so that no one may boast.


Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.



Works usually follow salvation and any works worthy of the Lord, were already created BY the Lord that we might walk in them. We do nothing.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Any works without salvation first are filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 8:3
For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to one another, so that you do not do what you want.
 

Angel4Truth

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The very foundation of the Gospel is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, as proclaimed by the apostle John, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14. Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47. Your denial of this most important doctrine is proof that you are outside of the faith and are a heretic.

I disagree. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. AMR is not outside the faith. Matters of doctrine and matters of salvation are not the same.

You agreed with my above post thanking me, yet you do not believe faith itself is also a gift from God, even though scripture says so, shall i call you heretic and outside the faith too?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
I disagree. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. AMR is not outside the faith. Matters of doctrine and matters of salvation are not the same.

You agreed with my above post thanking me, yet you do not believe faith itself is also a gift from God, even though scripture says so, shall i call you heretic and outside the faith too?

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 is a thumb nail sketch of the Gospel.

The Gospel is that work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus has perfected our humanity and has taken it back to heaven. We now stand as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Christ acceptance into heaven is our acceptance. We have been accepted in him. I am surprised that you didn't know that.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The very foundation of the Gospel is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, as proclaimed by the apostle John, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14. Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47. Your denial of this most important doctrine is proof that you are outside of the faith and are a heretic.

Why skip over John 37-39 that I cited? You continue to just move the goal posts with every post. You claim you are engaging me, but where is the substantive engagement with my posts? Do you think engaging means I am to follow you about as you play Scripture hopscotch hoping your failure to actually deal with my responses goes unnoticed?

Why not come to grips with the plain facts from the evidence in this thread that you are not really equipped to defend what you opine? Is just tossing Scripture verses about seasoned with naked opinion is the best you have to offer?

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Robert Pate Misunderstands "world"

Robert Pate Misunderstands "world"

The very foundation of the Gospel is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, as proclaimed by the apostle John, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14. Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, John 12:47. Your denial of this most important doctrine is proof that you are outside of the faith and are a heretic.

1 John 2:2

Robert, rather than teaching your brand of universalism, the Apostle John here instead announces the exclusivity of the Christian gospel. Since Christ’s atonement is efficacious for the whole world, there is no other form of atonement available to other peoples, cultures, and religions apart from Jesus Christ. Therefore, under the word all John does not include the reprobate, but refers to all who would believe and those who were scattered through various regions of the earth. For the grace of Jesus Christ is really made clear when it is declared to be the only salvation of the world.

1 John 4:14

With this verse John returns to his role as a witness by echoing 1 John 1:1- 4, with which the Apostle John opened the letter with the topic of the source of authoritative truth about eternal life. This statement affirms that John considers himself the bearer of spiritual truth, a truth that is not relativized by one’s nationality, ethnicity, or philosophy. Because the Son is the only Savior for all the peoples of the world (1 John 2: 1-2 as discussed above), any claim to spiritual truth not based on Christ’s atoning death is false and cannot form the basis of assurance about eternal life.

John 12:47

Also see John 3:17. In both instances, one observes, Why condemn an already condemned world? All people are already under God's judgment because of sin—specifically the sin of not believing in God's Son (John 16:9). The only way to escape the condemnation is to believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, because He came "that the world through Him might be saved". God's purpose was not the judgment of the world, worthy of condemnation though it was, but the salvation of the world; hence God the Father sent a Savior into the world.

The point of Jesus' being sent into the world was not to redeem Israel and condemn the Gentiles, but that the world might be saved through Him. In other words, God's gracious offer of salvation extended beyond Israel to all peoples. In John 3:17 Nicodemus (and by extension the Jewish nation he represented) should have known that, for in the Abrahamic covenant God declared, "I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed" (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18; Acts 3:25). Gentile salvation was always God's purpose (Isaiah 42:6-8; 55:1).

Robert, as long as you continue to labor under the error of thinking "world" always means each and every person, you will remain confused and in error.

AMR
 
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