ECT How is Paul's message different?

[turbosixx]

You've got to be kidding me.

Let's see... when were your sins forgiven? When you felt the pull of the Holy Spirit in your heart and you said 'yes, Lord' or when you were dunked in water?

Last time I checked it is by grace through faith alone.

Let's look at when Paul's sins were forgiven. After he had been blinded, fasted and prayed for three days Ananias lays hands on him and he receives his sight. Then he says to Paul 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[Right Divider]

OK, so the whole book and argument and imagery of the letter of Hebrews is mistaken. Got it.

If you take the ordinary meaning of the Bible, you will not be a D'ist. If you are a D'ist you take the ordinary meaning of the Bible and scramble it and call it the 'literal' meaning.

You are a very silly person. You always try to deflect like a little child. Go write some more fiction, it appears to be the only thing that you might be good at.

 

[turbosixx]

So Paul is the baptizer who washes away his own sins?

Ananias says "why do you wait?" What was there left for Paul to do?

In his commentary on this verse Sir Robert Anderson writes, "The Apostle records the words which Ananias addressed to him (Paul) at his conversion: 'Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord'...His meaning is clear: 'Arise and be baptized, and turn away from your evil courses, calling on His name'" [emphasis mine] (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 230-231).

There is a word for "turn away from your evil courses", it's repent. Do you really want to add that word here?

That is the meaning of the words "ye washed yourselves" and "cleanse ourselves" in the following verses:

"And such were some of you: but ye washed yourselves, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God " (1 Cor.6:11; RV, Marginal Note).​

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

Were the Corinthians water baptized? Based on these comments, I would say they were by different people including Paul.
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Were the Corinthians water baptized? Based on these comments, I would say they were by different people including Paul.
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.

Yes, and when believers were baptized with water they received the following gift which was bestowed by the Holy Spirit:

"...no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Cor.12:3-4, 8-11).​

The receiving of these gifts came as a result of believing the following gospel:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:15-18).​

Today Christians are to preach a different gospel and today no one receives the gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit and no one is supposed to be water baptized today because today there is but "one baptism" (Eph.4:5) and this is that one baptism:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All you prove to me is that you can't even tell the difference between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace and you think that there are "two baptisms" in the church today and not just one, as Paul declared.

I think that your problem is a medical condition--water on the brain!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not every single Israelite will be saved.

Of course you do not believe what Paul wrote here:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Anyway, my point is I have no issue with Paul having re-water baptized those 12 "Baptists" - an Israelite requirement prior to an Israelite receiving their promised gift of the Spirit, under their New Covenant, Ezekiel 36: 24-28; Acts 2: 6; Acts 2:38.

No one was re-water baptized!

 

[turbosixx]

That's bazaar, in that you agree that everything in all these things we have discussed are speaking of the old law and that you agree that whats told to the gentiles is different from the things you see of the Jews and what they are doing. You then say that neither of them are under any of that and that the apostles are doing this all in front of them because they are weak and that the Holy Spirit is also.

Who is the weak if it is not the people who live today? And if it is so that the apostles said exactly what they said in the dialogue we spoke of and did do those things(Acts of the Apostles)we speak of how is it that you see that they were doing things they knew were incorrect and then expect either them or us to see? There is that one thing in what you said it is that you know it said this but you think it says something else thats what I see you saying.

If you think I said the Holy Spirit is weak, I apologize for not doing a better job of getting my points across. I will try and do a better job but if you don’t want to continue to discuss, I understand. I will summarize the way I currently see things.

What I believe is the old law was fulfilled and nailed to the cross. The new covenant then started after Jesus's DBR and that is when one new body was formed for Jew and Gentile, the church.
Eph. 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

The 12 were told to proclaim the gospel to the world, not just the Jews. Even though we don't see them going to the whole world, that doesn't nullify the meaning of what Jesus said. What they were proclaiming was for the whole world.

When Jesus sent the 12 out before his DBR, did they save anyone by their preaching? Not that I read in scripture. If you know of a passage, please share it. On Pentecost their preaching saved 3,000 souls, what changed?

What I see the 12 doing in Jerusalem is the same thing Paul did in similar situations. They appeared as Jews to reach Jews and bring them to maturity. If they denounced Moses and the old law, the Jews would shut their ears. They need knowledge. Paul could have done exactly that when he got to Jerusalem but we do not see him doing that. It’s obvious to me, based on Paul at times observing the old law and his comments, that denouncing or violating the law is not always the best way to handle Jews in some situations.

As far as the letter. What is your take on the apostles bringing those things from the old law and applying it to the Gentile converts?

 

[turbosixx]

All you prove to me is that you can't even tell the difference between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace and you think that there are "two baptisms" in the church today and not just one, as Paul declared.

I think that your problem is a medical condition--water on the brain!

If you think Paul declared one baptism, why do we see him water baptizing believers? If you understand your correctly, that makes two.

 

[turbosixx]

No one was re-water baptized!

What does baptized in the name of Jesus mean?

 

[john w]

The 'people' was believers. It's a great play on words, because 'ethne' is what we would say to day is a 'race.' Paul did a similar play on words in Eph 2 about the 'new man.' A new humanity, a new people-group. There is nothing complicated about it.

No, it's not, you fraud, as you redefine the word "nation" to fit your made up satanic slop.

 

[Right Divider]

If you think Paul declared one baptism, why do we see him water baptizing believers? If you understand your correctly, that makes two.

So you think that Paul was either confused or a liar.

 

[Right Divider]

What does baptized in the name of Jesus mean?

Why do you have such a hard time understanding figures of speech?

 

[john w]

Jesus' gospel isn't any less because Judas preached it.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Confirmed child of the devil, as she asserts, on record, that her saint Judas preached the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you think Paul declared one baptism, why do we see him water baptizing believers? If you understand your correctly, that makes two.

The words of Paul where he declared that there is but one baptism came later in the prison epistles. By then no one was preaching the gospel of the kingdom and therefore no one was being baptized with water and no one was receiving the gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Or perhaps you actually think that the following is still happening in the church today?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:15-18).​

Do you think that those things are happening in the church today?

 

[john w]

Why do you sound like these people?

Luke 24:64 They blindfolded him and demanded, "Prophesy! Who hit you?"

As usual, you have added nothing, Damien-ette.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What does baptized in the name of Jesus mean?

Why don't you prove that people were re-water baptized.

 

[john w]

JerryS:
Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
You still haven't figured it out that the gospel which the Twelve preached at Luke 9:6 could not possibly be the same gospel which Paul preached at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 because they didn't even know he was to die.

Are you really this dumb?



"Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world." That would be through death. If that is your roll-out marketing tagline, I rather think it was common, though unwanted, knowledge in 1st century Judea.

No, Forest-that would be you, moron. What a mess, from this humanist, biblical buffoon, who wouldn't know the difference between Genesis, and Exodus, thinking they are rock bands.


You learn through repetition; Therefore,one more time-to clear up this John 1:29 KJV stumper, that the drones shout, "See!!!! The Baptist knew!!!"


John 1 KJV

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

That has NADA to do with a sin offering, drones-it was a reference to carrying away our griefs, burdens-NADA to do with dying for our sins. John the Baptist had no clue that the Lord Jesus Christ would die for our sins.

As others have been shown, chapter and verse, no one knew at that time that Christ was going to be put to death. The 11 were clueless. John the Baptist was clueless, witness his puzzlement that he was in prison, and his message to the Lord. "What the heck is happening?". He was expecting the warrior King Messiah, not a suffering servant. It was not until the Sanhedrin declared the Lord Jesus Christ's destruction(Mt. 12:32 KJV), that the Lord Jesus Christ revealed that He was going to die. Again, the 11 were clueless. Everyone was. The passover lamb did not represent "bearing sin," and a lamb was never the sin offering victim. Nor was it "the sin of the world" that the scapegoat bore away-it was the sins of Israel, per Lev. 16:21 KJV. The "bearing of the sin of the world" is not a reference to, a prophecy, pointing to Calvary, but a revelation of what the Lord Jesus Christ was during His earthly ministry. "taketh away"-taking up and carrying burdens, not a "sacrificial" term here.

His earthly ministry-sin bearer, in the sense of taking up and carrying burdens-his groans and tears at the grave of his friend Lazarus....He took up and bore the burden of human sin; not, during His earthly life as to guilt(that was not until Calvary), but as to sufferings and sorrows it brought upon all of mankind:

Is. 53:7 KJV
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

No sacrificial language is intended here, as slaughter merely means "shambles," as it foretold of the Christ's earthly life of "humbling Himself", and suffering.

 

[turbosixx]

The words of Paul where he declared that there is but one baptism came later in the prison epistles.

I agree so that means that he is writing to Christians. How did they become Christian? By believing and being baptized in water.

You agreed that the Corinthians were water baptized. We can see they were water baptized by several men. So in chapter 12 when he says "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body"what he is saying is when they were baptized in the name of Jesus the Holy Spirit added them to the one body. We can see that exact thing here:
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
When they were baptized the Holy Spirit added their soul to the one body.

By then no one was preaching the gospel of the kingdom

What do you mean by gospel of the kingdom?

 

[turbosixx]

Why don't you prove that people were re-water baptized.

To understand what being baptized in the name of Jesus is, all we have to do is look to other passages. The bible is it's best own best commentary.

Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[turbosixx]

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:15-18).​

Do you think that those things are happening in the church today?

How did those in the bible get those spiritual gifts?