How do you view God?

[1Way]

BCK - Great stuff. You said

Well, if God can’t know it all. Then the charge that the Open View posits a non-Omniscient God is valid.

No. God can be all knowing, if you allow the scope of what can be known to what is knowable. So I see where I disagree with Boyd. He is too philosophical and going out on a limb that I thought was cut off by open theism. There simply is no good reason to say that God must have all knowledge prior to existence. The open view allows a God that can learn new things, yet He still seems stuck with a God that must at least theoretically know all things and then just through away what did not actually come to pass. Although I really dislike his phrasing which is that He does not actualize what He does not want to happen or something like that. That sounds just plain silly. You go on saying.

If God can know it all but all doesn’t include the future decisions of free will agents, for these are not realized facts, then you salvage God’s Omniscience. I think that is what Boyd does.

I disagree with Boyd then. There is no need to salvage anything, you simply do not interject the unbiblical notion that God's foreknowledge must mean that He knows everything including things that are unknowable. Again, all you have to have is one unknown option per ever 1 million years, and if that uncertainty goes on for all eternity, you could NEVER know it all, because there will always be more uncertain events that have not happened yet, and there is no end to them so you can not possibly know it all, there is no all in an actual infinity, there is only endlessness. You said

Well, I would disagree. I think Boyd might to. I don’t think that the number of permutations of possible future outcomes is limitless.

You say permutations, I say stick with the number one and then plug in eternity. You have one random or uncertain event per minuet or day or millennium, it does not matter, when you have that happening for all of eternity, you have an infinite unending amount of uncertain events and by definition, you can not know them all, since there is no possible way to get all of them, there will always be more, it never ends, you can never know them all. The future is a long long, very long way away, it's unending it's so long.

You've really clarified things for me, thanks and much appreciated.

 

[BChristianK]

1Way you responded to me saying:

:Bchristiank said:

Your free to hold any opinion of me you like.

You know, that is offensive to me. But I won’t hold it against you just yet. God says to not let your good be spoken of as evil. So from me to you, if someone trashed you, and you didn't care what someone else said, I would care for your sake for the sake of goodness and righteousness. You should honestly care what others think about you and about others. What we think matters.

I appreciate you not holding it against me.


You said

Oh, boy, this is not going as well as I had hoped. We should not use effectiveness as the direction of our life! It is good to consider effectiveness, but the more important moral concern is to do right and risk the consequences!

I’m not a moral pragmatist. But Paul said he became all things to all people so he might by all means save some. There is no mandate to name call. Can you show me one?

The fact is that God's way is the best way, and the road to Romans step one is that you are WRONG pal!

God’s way is the best way. I don’t argue against Paul’s statement in Romans.

Dude, If you think you got it all figured out. That you are all right and I have it all wrong, you’re probably right. The best thing you can do is pray for me.

Ok, that concludes this broadcast day. You are trying to be nicer than God, that is name calling, I'm judging you, and I would do the same if you were not a self professing believer in God. I'm not looking forward to your response, but I am looking forward to the meet of this debate.

I also look forward to the day when we get to the meat of this debate.

May the Grace and Peace of Christ be with you 1Way….

 

[OMEGA]

It seems that 1Way is seeking for the IDEAL in Balance.

How Gracious or how Harsh should he be in his Critique of others ?

Should he judge and condemn or go his way and let God Rebuke them ?

What does your Bible say ?

Proverbs 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

 

[1Way]

LOL
:doh:

I think praying is good about now.

 

[1Way]

BChristianK

I can't hardly believe this, I really did not plan on taking this long to get back into this discussion. Numerous things have been happening, and I'm undergoing unusual stresses like searching for a job and such. So I am touching bases to say that unfortunately, with my workload cut out for me, it may take again as much time (weeks, months?) until I've the time to take up this great topic.

Sorry for the delay, and I'm looking forward to doing this somewhat larger scale debate.

Blessings,
1Way

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by 1Way

BChristianK

I can't hardly believe this, I really did not plan on taking this long to get back into this discussion. Numerous things have been happening, and I'm undergoing unusual stresses like searching for a job and such. So I am touching bases to say that unfortunately, with my workload cut out for me, it may take again as much time (weeks, months?) until I've the time to take up this great topic.

Sorry for the delay, and I'm looking forward to doing this somewhat larger scale debate.

Blessings,
1Way

Sorry to hear you are experiencing stress and out of work, 1way.
You are in my prayers.

Dave

 

[1Way]

Dave

(smile)

Thanks

 

[add yasaf]

right wing extremist means to many that God is Timothy McVeigh.

You could even describe the terrorists of 9/11 as extreme right wing.


There are democrats who oppose abortion by the way. I personally know one myself who also is against affirmative action.

This person is a black male in his late twenties believe it or not.





It's not that God is trying to be careful as to how he represents himself, it is that we have to be careful for there are many interpretations of amny different Scriptures that have to be seriously considered.



Why would God, for example, shun homos??? Do you think that all the prostitutes Jesus had table fellowship with were heterosexual!?

What does the parable of the Good Samaritan teach us if not that a right-wing Christian should feel compelled to help out a homo with the HIV virus. Jesus was showing that he approves of such a gesture.


If a homosexual yells at you for being repressed and tells you that Christianity sucks, our response Jesus saiid, is to turn the other cheek, not to do evil for evil.



Showing homosexuals what a healthy heterosexual relationship is like is the best way to get them to change. That and a lot of prayer.

 

[Sozo]

It's amazing how many self-proclaimed "Christians" are duped by the liberal media into accepting what God calls the apex of all unrighteousness.

Everyone needs Jesus, but homosexuality should be no more tolerated than child molestation, murder, terrorism, rape, etc.

You can share the truth with anyone, and they can repent, but ALL immoral perversion should still be punished. And those who tolerate it, are equally guilty.

"For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

 

[freelight]

gazing thru the telescope......

gazing thru the telescope......

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you think I'm a right wing extremist, wait till you meet God. If you have a problem with me, you're not going to like God at all! I'm just a lame little Teddy bear compared to God. All I can do is post on this web site and shun as many homos as I come in contact with. The awesome living God, on the other hand, not only is the one who created the universe by the power of His spoken word and has the power to throw your soul into eternal fire, but He also happens to be the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist of the universe! And He does not like people who try to ride fences.
I suggest you pick a side and get on it!

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.




)========== Hello all,..............looks like at this time more are in disagreement with Cletes 'view of God' as shared above. (pretty close). Catagorizing God as a 'right-wing extremist' is a bit far fetched...even if using the term to emphasize 'your' point. Also 'shunning' homos is a blanket statement that could be an offense to many persons. (the 'shunning' appears 'personal'). The 'view' above is subject to the 'view' of the poster and does not necessarily represent the true character of God......as much as his fervor supposes. Is it any wonder that Poly would endorse Cletes 'view of God' as expressed above....especially because it also shuns homos? Hmmmmm......with that 'Gay-away' logo she sports...one wonders.



Poly wrote:

I agree with Clete's view. I'm sick of Him being made out to be a wimp or a good ol' grandpa in the sky. Yes His is loving but He is also rightous, just and holy. He cannot look upon sin and expects the same from us.
So let's get off the fence. What is your view of God? Do you agree or disagree with Clete? Give reasoning or scripture for your vote. [/QUOTE]



)============ The totality of Gods Character must be realized in the assessment of his ministration of justice and mercy...and these two aspects of his divine Being are always synergized in perfect concert. God is more merciful that we can know...and who can fathom the depths of His Love? Your vehemency over sin is admirable to some and evidently to your own sense of the aura of holiness you appear to esteem....which reflects your perception of God and how he cannot look on sin, etc.
Well,...its time to wake up to the real world...because sin as a phenoma in the world and in humanty is an integral part of our mortal experience. Sin is inevitable with imperfect beings living in a fallen world - sin is something we experience as we grow, evolve and progress spiritually.....and is something we deal less with as we become more perfect in love. Until we are perfected in our nature and wholly governed by Love/Holy Spirit......we are subject to sin and the base lower animal nature. Our aspirations Godward lead us away from sin and towards righteousness.....as we grow in grace.

God is not an right wing extremist wacko, wimp or good ole grampa in the sky. He is much more - a transcendent DEITY who reigns supremely over any and all labels attributed to him by Man.
He is Love, Light, Truth, Spirit. He exercises perfect justice and mercy in his ministrations...and his government is Wisdom. All souls are ever judged/weighed/understood in His Light and treated justly and mercifully according to his divine Nature. He cannot violate the constitution of His own Being. Therefore I find the 'view of God' expressed above as a 'reaction' to the other side of the extreme views....yet must be careful of being guilty of the same 'extremism' - often reactionary trends tend to over-step the bounds....and become unbalanced. Jesus presents God as a loving Father......not a raging, wrathful right wing bigot. I choose to worship his God and Father as my own...the one who makes his sun to shine on the wicked and the just...and make his rain fall upon the good and the evil. Jesus also teaches that loving those that we consider evil or enemies is the way we show ourselves to be sons of God/Light. It is by our demonstration of love that we show ourselves as 'true' disciples of the Christ.


paul

 

[PureX]

Hateful people believe in a hateful God. Angry, resentful people believe in an angry, resentful God. Kind and tolerant people believe in a kind and tolerant God. Loving and forgiing people believe in a loving and forgiving God. This is obvious.

So the question becomes: what kind of God do we believe in, and what does that say about the kind of person we are?

 

[Clete]

PureX,

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive concepts. Indeed, the most loving thing that one could do for homo's would be to attach a very healthy stigma to the crime of homosexuallity and to execute those who commit it.

More to come later! I'm out of time for now!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[freelight]

how fab.......

how fab.......

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

PureX,

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive concepts. Indeed, the most loving thing that one could do for homo's would be to attach a very healthy stigma to the crime of homosexuallity and to execute those who commit it.

More to come later! I'm out of time for now!

Resting in Him,
Clete

)=========== Ahhh,.............homesexuality is now a crime?....and I suppose you're Gods police force? Execution eh. How novel. How Christ-like. How loving.

I wonder how much you really know about homosexuality and same-sex attraction...as a soul-orientation/psychology. Do you know a person who is gay? Have you ever happened to meet/acquaint yourself with a person that has same-sex attractions/affinities and discovered he/she was actually a human being??? A child of God? A 'person' with as much intrinsic and eternal value/potential as yourself?


I suppose all other laws transgressed that require death(by stoning or ortherwise) should be enforeced too - no? Just pick and choose the OT laws/penalties that suit your bias/prejudice/bigotry/hatred towards certain minorities, etc. - how fitting....while neglecting the rest.

I am sure Jesus would advocate killing people too. :doh:
....and to think persons with these kinds of mentalities call themselves christians. He taught even the slightest hatred towards our brother...or even calling him names (fool, etc.) could put one in danger of Gehenna - such thoughts/actions are considered on the same level as 'murder'.
Jesus taught the law of love for the standard of practice among his disciples. Any who do not have or show this love towards others....are not his disciples.
All souls belong to God and He loves them all. Those who know God...love with His Love....and practice such.



paul

 

[Clete]

Re: how fab.......

Re: how fab.......

Originally posted by freelight

)=========== Ahhh,.............homesexuality is now a crime?....and I suppose you're Gods police force? Execution eh. How novel. How Christ-like. How loving.

It has always been a crime you idiot!
It may not be against the law in this country but that's not what I'm talking about. And no I am not God's police force. I do not have the authority to execute criminals, that's the governments job. A job that this country is doing very poorly.
And yes, it is very Christ like and loving to practice justice.

I wonder how much you really know about homosexuality and same-sex attraction...as a soul-orientation/psychology. Do you know a person who is gay? Have you ever happened to meet/acquaint yourself with a person that has same-sex attractions/affinities and discovered he/she was actually a human being??? A child of God? A 'person' with as much intrinsic and eternal value/potential as yourself?

I know more than most. I spent quite a number of years counceling people with a meriad of problems, not the least of which was a struggle with homosexual lusts.
I know, for example, that better than 9 out of 10 male homos were sexually molested around the the age of eight by a man. Children between the ages of 6 and eight are developing there understanding of what is masculine and feminine and a sexual assault at this age often (not always) results in a confusion of these roles.
If child molestation went away, so would better than 90% of homosexuallity. It is not unaccurate at all to say that homos reproduce by molesting children. It's no wonder the leaders of the homo movement in this country are pushing for the age of conscent to be lower and lower.

I suppose all other laws transgressed that require death(by stoning or ortherwise) should be enforeced too - no? Just pick and choose the OT laws/penalties that suit your bias/prejudice/bigotry/hatred towards certain minorities, etc. - how fitting....while neglecting the rest.

I do not neglect the rest! The symbolic laws such as the Sabath and circumcision do not apply for several reasons but the moral laws of God should all be in force and the nation that does neglect them, as you put it, will have God to answer to for it.

I am sure Jesus would advocate killing people too. :doh:

Well of course He would! Who do you think it was who gave the law to execute homos in the first place?

....and to think persons with these kinds of mentalities call themselves christians. He taught even the slightest hatred towards our brother...or even calling him names (fool, etc.) could put one in danger of Gehenna - such thoughts/actions are considered on the same level as 'murder'.

You are truly stupid! You can't possibly believe what you've written here! Do you really believe that murder is an equivelant sin to unjustified verbal assault? Is that really what you are saying?

Jesus taught the law of love for the standard of practice among his disciples. Any who do not have or show this love towards others....are not his disciples.
All souls belong to God and He loves them all. Those who know God...love with His Love....and practice such.

It was God who said to execute the murderer and the homo and the adulterer etc. not me!!!
Those who know God do indeed love with His love and practice such! So why are you giving me a hard time for advocating the very action that God Himself said we should take with regard to the criminal?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[freelight]

Re: Re: how fab.......

Re: Re: how fab.......

Hi Clete,

My comments interspersed below in the quote -

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It has always been a crime you idiot!
It may not be against the law in this country but that's not what I'm talking about. And no I am not God's police force. I do not have the authority to execute criminals, that's the governments job. A job that this country is doing very poorly.
And yes, it is very Christ like and loving to practice justice.



)============= this depends on ones concept of justice. Also....how do you justify calling someone with homosexual tendencies a 'criminal'? Why do you appear to be singling out and magnifying homosexuality as being 'criminal'? There are hundreds of other crimes, trangressions of the law.....yet you seem to be bent on gays. hmmmm.



I know more than most. I spent quite a number of years counceling people with a meriad of problems, not the least of which was a struggle with homosexual lusts.
I know, for example, that better than 9 out of 10 male homos were sexually molested around the the age of eight by a man. Children between the ages of 6 and eight are developing there understanding of what is masculine and feminine and a sexual assault at this age often (not always) results in a confusion of these roles.
If child molestation went away, so would better than 90% of homosexuallity. It is not unaccurate at all to say that homos reproduce by molesting children. It's no wonder the leaders of the homo movement in this country are pushing for the age of conscent to be lower and lower.



)=========== I would agree that a fair percentage of male homosexuals may have been molested - I think your figures however are an exaggeration. Also.....there are just as many 'heteros'(men) if not more...molesting little girls...it would seem. Again...I think your statement about 90% of HS going away if child molestation stopped is exaggerated. Your bashing and general prejudice against 'homos' is typified in your jargon. I have never heard of the push for age of consent to be lowered. Its natural that you have to get all the ammo you can on the gays eh.....since they are after all in your eyes....criminals. You appear to be confusing the sins of molestation, sexual abuse...with being homosexual. How infantile.......considering not all homosexual persons are molestors or abusers.





It was God who said to execute the murderer and the homo and the adulterer etc. not me!!!
Those who know God do indeed love with His love and practice such! So why are you giving me a hard time for advocating the very action that God Himself said we should take with regard to the criminal?



)=========== because your views are prejudiced and unbalanced - thats why. Also you rant about HS being a crime...and a gay person for being a criminal - just for being gay!
I am not so sure about you knowing any gay person for real.....but are judging them(as a whole) thru your limited understanding and experience - enflamed with your 'god-inspired' hatred for 'law-breakers'. You appear to be rather zealous to see homos taking the lick of Gods wrath. HS as a soul-dispostion and genderal oreintation is much more complex than just catagorizing these persons as 'criminals' - that is so not right. You must be equating the very thought or emotional need itself for homosexual persons to be with one another, to be loved, etc. as 'criminal'....and most horrible evil. Well,...I suppose thats your perrogative. There are many books written about the OT & NT verses on HS......and various interpretations as well. ( I havent read too extensively.....but a little). Many would disagree with you about what God said/says about HS....and put you in the nut-bin with the rest of the right wing extremists. Oh yeah....your god is a right wing extremist. ( humor )


paul

 

[Gnostic]

Clete saith about the law of his wrathful, vengeful, jealous, intollerent, repenting, extremist God: "Who do you think it was who gave the law to execute homos in the first place?"

And who do you think made them homos in the first place but your wrathful, vengeful, jealous, intollerent, repenting, extremist God?

Exodus 4:11
The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

But luckily we have this guy who didn't care less about ones sexual preferences and went about his Father's business of healing and comforting those who fell victims to Satan's works.

Matthew 15:30
Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute and many others, and laid them at his feet; and he healed them.

What contradiction! :thumb:

*

 

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by Gnostic
And who do you think made them homos in the first place but your wrathful, vengeful, jealous, intollerent, repenting, extremist God?

Exodus 4:11
The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

Hey Satan - deaf, mute, mouth, speak - those are parts of birth, yes. Sexuality is a choice, and homosexuality is a choice - did God also make drunks to be drunks and murderers to be murderers? May it never be! Rather it is sin within us that makes us choose such things. It is not God but rather our rejection of Him, our rebellion against Him that causes us to do such things.

 

[Gnostic]

Berean, do you know anything about genetics?

The brain chooses yes, but the genes dictate whether it likes strawberry or vanilla.

*

 

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by Gnostic

Berean, do you know anything about genetics?

The brain chooses yes, but the genes dictate whether it likes strawberry or vanilla.

*

I do know something about that; and if you did you would know that the "study" that gays use to say that it is "genetically predetermined" had some questionable findings, and that the results have never as yet been able to be reproduced as they "supposedly" originally were.

The "its genetic" is just like the "10%" - it's a myth that they perpetuate to try and rationalize or normalize themselves.

Now, before you jump on that - while I don't think that it is genetic and have not seen enough proof yet that it is; I still think it's entirely possible that it could be. It still wouldn't matter. Drunkeness often runs in a family, or for instance Native Americans are more predisposed to it. That doesn't make it any less wrong or sinful. It doesn't matter because ultimately, weather choice or genetic, God still says it's WRONG and that's all that matters to me.

 

[Gnostic]

You said: "our rebellion against Him that causes us to do such things."

Please stop this "rebellion" nonsense. You heard your local preacher trumpet this and now you love trumpeting the same thing. Your God is so hopelessly impotent that his creatures rebel against him and he burns them for not believing the nonsense written about him in the first place. O please!

Now look, how the Creator programmed us, that is how we are. We are exactly how we were made to be. Some are good, some wicked, some smart, some stupid, some very creative, some make the most ugly web sites imaginable... and the Creator is the programmer, and he did it, And if he's not capable of programming DNA and Brain to function as he wishes it then he's really no better than that Wizard of Oz who turned out to be a man hiding behind some curtain. Now please wake up and understand that humanoids were programmed by cosmic entities and our characters have nothing to do with God whatsoever, thank God.

*