Honoring Old Love vs Medical Tyranny

Traditio

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I can understand his missing her and being lonely, however, she was ill and it's probable she did not have the capability of consenting.

I don't think that you're understanding my point. It's one thing to hear, from a doctor, "your husband/wife has Alzheimer's and is slowly but surely losing mental capacities." It's another thing to see it for yourself, understand it, and translate that into life change.

For example, my grandfather pretty much made all of the important decisions when he was in his right mind. But well after he was diagnosed, my grandmother would still run everything by him, even though he was "out of it," so to speak. She even asked him what he thought of being put on hospice care. He was, of course, in no position to be making important decisions. But that's how they'd always lived. That's what she'd always done.

Hearing a doctor say "look, bla bla bla" isn't enough to overcome a habitual attitude towards a spouse that you have interacted with in a certain way for decades.

Suppose that she wasn't able to consent, and suppose she hadn't previously (in more or less her right state of mind) expressed her wishes in advance, we can't automatically assume that he's a sleezy scumbag rapist who deserves to rot in prison.

Chances are, he just saw himself doing what he did with his wife non-stop for decades, up to and including the early stages of her disease. "But the doctors said..." Sure. Doctors say a lot of things. What's your point?

And consider it from this point of view: Suppose, had she been in her right state of mind, someone had asked her: "In these conditions, you not being in your right state of mine, and your husband having done such and such a thing, would you want him incarcerated for rape," what do you think she would say? Be honest.

The OP title is trying to spin this as a romantic, honorable event. Was his love and support only offered under the condition of sex?

I wasn't making that point. I'm simply pointing out that we shouldn't be so quick to judge the man, and I think that it's probably extremely unjust that he's in prison.
 

1PeaceMaker

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Right. I am guilty of making a blatant accusation of medical tyranny not honoring "old love".

I wish I would have provided links to the case in question.

Ho hum.

Are you suffering from dementia? Try to keep up, but know I wouldn't assume you lacked the ability to give consent to your partner, even if your reading comprehension was suffering online.

But then you'd rather someone just hold your hand if you were cognitively impaired anyway, sooo Rushafornia can include laws against "old love" for you.
 

Traditio

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Finally, Rusha, I would like to reiterate my point: Unless you have cared for an Alzheimer's patient, you simply do not have the experiential data to make any kind of prudential judgment in this matter. You simply don't understand what the disease "means" or comes out to in daily life.

Maybe she couldn't consent. But maybe sexual relations with her husband were so normal a part of her daily routine that she would have been extremely upset had he left without doing what he (allegedly) did.

You don't mess with an Alzheimer's patient's routine. You just don't do it. It just doesn't work. :idunno:

And given the circumstances, who knows what might have gone through our man's mind? Who knows what reasonings prompted him to do what he allegedly did? Again, I reiterate: we simply cannot judge. We weren't there. We don't know their relationship. And we don't know his motives.

But we can't assume that he's a sleezy, sex-crazed rapist.
 

shagster01

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We don't need to have discussions; we have you to tell us to do ... what exactly? Why are you on this thread?

I agree with you and 1PeaceMaker on a few things like vaccinations. But even when I agree with you, the way you present your point is so off putting. . .

We can know who should be brought to trial and who shouldn't. A negative rape test isn't enough? The witnesses changed testimony the she didn't hear sex noises isn't enough?

I personally think that he was having sex with her. I'll let the jury decide. But that is what my intuition tells me.
 

Rusha

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I was a medical professional in the military for many years, so you don't know squat, lady.

I was speaking of *actual* professionals, you know, those who know what they are speaking of you.

According to your ramblings, knowing squat would be a step up for you.
 

Rusha

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I'm not the bigot accusing others of being from metaphorical Barrytown or buying wholesale what news pundits say.

Uh huh. Thankfully I am not the nut looking for conspiracy theories against the medical community and legal authorities.
 

Rusha

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I don't think that you're understanding my point. It's one thing to hear, from a doctor, "your husband/wife has Alzheimer's and is slowly but surely losing mental capacities." It's another thing to see it for yourself, understand it, and translate that into life change.

For example, my grandfather pretty much made all of the important decisions when he was in his right mind. But well after he was diagnosed, my grandmother would still run everything by him, even though he was "out of it," so to speak. She even asked him what he thought of being put on hospice care. He was, of course, in no position to be making important decisions. But that's how they'd always lived. That's what she'd always done.

Hearing a doctor say "look, bla bla bla" isn't enough to overcome a habitual attitude towards a spouse that you have interacted with in a certain way for decades.

Suppose that she wasn't able to consent, and suppose she hadn't previously (in more or less her right state of mind) expressed her wishes in advance, we can't automatically assume that he's a sleezy scumbag rapist who deserves to rot in prison.

Chances are, he just saw himself doing what he did with his wife non-stop for decades, up to and including the early stages of her disease. "But the doctors said..." Sure. Doctors say a lot of things. What's your point?

And consider it from this point of view: Suppose, had she been in her right state of mind, someone had asked her: "In these conditions, you not being in your right state of mine, and your husband having done such and such a thing, would you want him incarcerated for rape," what do you think she would say? Be honest.

I wasn't making that point. I'm simply pointing out that we shouldn't be so quick to judge the man, and I think that it's probably extremely unjust that he's in prison.

That's interesting ... and all Traditio. That you and few others are so concerned about "the man". Poor guy .... in such a state of mind that others had to make his decisions and physically care for him. How on earth could anyone be expected to forgo sex even though their loved one is on death's doorstep?

Here, let me clear it up for you. I am only interested in the helpless victim he had his way with.
 

Traditio

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That's interesting ... and all Traditio. That you and few others are so concerned about "the man". Poor guy .... in such a state of mind that others had to make his decisions and physically care for him. How on earth could anyone be expected to forgo sex even though their loved one is on death's doorstep?

Here, let me clear it up for you. I am only interested in the helpless victim he had his way with.

That's your way of describing it from your point of view, a point of view, please note, which has been formed in more or less ignorance of the complete circumstances of the case. If you knew all of the facts (i.e., were fully aware of all of the circumstances of their relationship over the course of their marriage, were fully aware of the circumstances of both him and his wife at the time, etc.)...in other words, if you were in the shoes either of the man or his demented wife, you might be describing it differently.

"I am only interested in the helpless victim he had his way with."

Do you think that our guy would describe it in those terms?

If, all of a sudden, the woman in question were to come back from the grave, in full possession of her mental capacities, and were fully informed of the particulars, do you think she would describe it in those terms?

I don't think so. :idunno:

But note, Rusha, I'm not arguing in favor of our man's actions. I'm simply pointing out that you cannot judge him, and, furthermore, neither should the State.

To put things in context, Rusha, let us note that our man is not accused of going from room to room raping random nursing home patients. He is accused of raping his wife.
 

Traditio

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One final point, Rusha: go back to the initial article, and review the comments below the article. Review especially the comments by those persons who have actually lived through such things. You may question your previous point of view. :idunno:
 

Rusha

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That's your way of describing it from your point of view, a point of view, please note, which has been formed in more or less ignorance of the complete circumstances of the case. If you knew all of the facts (i.e., were fully aware of all of the circumstances of their relationship over the course of their marriage, were fully aware of the circumstances of both him and his wife at the time, etc.)...in other words, if you were in the shoes either of the man or his demented wife, you might be describing it differently.

By your own standard, everyone in this thread is posting from *ignorance*. However, the ONE circumstance that cannot be denied is that the place in question was NOT their private residence.

You do understand that unless you own or legally reside in your place of residence, common sense would dictate that it's not okay to just "do it", especially with an audience present.

A husband having sex with is ill wife in the presence of spectators is neither honorable or loving.
 

1PeaceMaker

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A husband having sex with is ill wife in the presence of spectators is neither honorable or loving.

How long are you going to push that in the face of the negative rape kit?

And the curtains are for privacy, so if you set aside the questionable removal of her sex life you have two consenting adults that you wouldn't judge if they were quietly privately doing anything intimate in a tent near a campfire with other tents and campers.

Whatever happened behind the curtains, the old strange lady was only offended that he removed her prying eyes from them. Then she couldn't police her roommate properly.

Because whatever they did, they weren't immodest exhibitionists, and she wasn't a witness of anything.
 

elohiym

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However, the ONE circumstance that cannot be denied is that the place in question was NOT their private residence.

It was a room they were paying for, with a privacy curtain. :duh:

You do understand that unless you own or legally reside in your place of residence, common sense would dictate that it's not okay to just "do it", especially with an audience present.

The home did not have a policy against sex between residents, and unlike the facility and staff in this story that was neither equipped to care for Alzheimer's patients nor competent in making a determination of her competence, facilities that are equipped don't disallow sex when people suffer from dementia. People forced to live old folks homes shouldn't be denied the right to have consensual sexual intercourse.

A husband having sex with is ill wife in the presence of spectators is neither honorable or loving.

That's not what happened. You can't face facts.
 

1PeaceMaker

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elohiym

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I agree with you and 1PeaceMaker on a few things like vaccinations.

Do you? Huh.

But even when I agree with you, the way you present your point is so off putting. . .

Like...

I'm putting my fingers in my ears and saying, "la la la," now.

... and what you are doing now? Very off putting. See?

I personally think that he was having sex with her.

You don't take your own advice on judging? Interesting.

I'll let the jury decide. But that is what my intuition tells me.

I'm not going with intuition but the validity of the rape test, the witnesses' changed statement, the content of the affidavit that led to the arrest and the other facts in the case that haven't been disputed.
 

Rusha

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whatever they did, they weren't immodest exhibitionists, and she wasn't a witness of anything.

Why are you claiming on one hand to KNOW he didn't do anything and then stating "whatever they did"? For some reason you seem to believe you know more than someone who was on the other side of a curtain. She has more credibility than *you* do because, unlike you, she was THERE. Close enough to hear.

And yes, someone who has sex with someone in a place where he knows is not private IS an exhibitionist.

Also, feel free to explain what you meant by "honoring old love".
 
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